Ep. 276: The Mystery Behind the Crop Circles

Brandon: Welcome back to Tinfoil Tells. I'm your host Brandon. Today I'm joined by a guest that was on here last year, but glad to have you back. Dee, thanks for coming on here and talking to me again.

Citizen D: Ah, it's a pleasure. I had such a good time last time. So that's why I reached out again.

Brandon: Would you like to let everyone know that might not be familiar with who you are, a little bit about yourself?

Citizen D: Yeah, I'm a Fortean and a ufologist, and I'm a former crop circle maker. And I basically came in as a believer in ET and time travelers and Gaia or military testing being the culprits for crop circles. But then my research has took me deeper. That's basically it. And I've got a book out which came out yesterday where I've interviewed trusted circle makers and I've collated their accounts of unusual activity before, during, and after creation of the crop circles. And I've collated them into this book, which came out yesterday.

Brandon: So when this all come about, like on our first interview, we kind of talked about how the circles and everything. But there's actually more to crop circles than just you guys were going out there and making them. Like there's actually some reason why you believe that people are drawn to making these circles.

Citizen D: I do absolutely believe that now. And because the book is only a hundred ninety pages long, I've had to strip it down from three hundred pages because all of the accounts I was getting, all the accounts were so similar and they were from unrelated team members, people that didn't know each other. There'd be an account from 10 years ago. It'd be mirrored now. And that's when I started to, that's when I knew that I was really vindicated because the same similar accounts were just recurring again and again and again.

Brandon: I think crop circles were, they weren't as prevalent in the United States as they were in England. Like we had some over here, but I know in like in the UK, I think over there, there was a lot more going on than what we ever had over here in the United States.

Citizen D: Yeah. But with the American ones, were they not generally very, very basic and single patterns? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See, I contend that that might actually be a different phenomenon and that the the single circles that started this whole circus off back in, you know, the eighties, some of us contend that they actually could be in inverted commas, the real thing. But as soon as the humans learn how to draw straight lines and they and they and then with repetition and with practice and with experience, they got better, better and more complicated. That's when I think that the the human element, you know, became more prevalent and dominated the phenomenon after that.

Brandon: Now, when you started doing your research for this, we kind of talked a little bit about it on the first day, but the book hadn't came out yet. You were in the middle of writing it. Since the last time we talked, is there anything that you've discovered since then that you'd like to talk about?

Citizen D: Yeah, I think that I was only halfway through when we spoke last time, and I've collected a lot of accounts since. And the the overriding and overwhelming pattern that's emerging as I'm collecting these accounts. And I'm only talking to circle makers that I know personally or that have been vouched for me. I've been vouched for by trusted friends, which is the same as when you're making crop circles, branding. You don't tend to go out of people you don't know because it's a very volatile thing to do. You know, you've got to make sure that everybody on the team is kosher and trustworthy. But the overriding pattern that I'm getting is one of engineering and one of synchronicity and one of engineered chance and one of interconnectivity. There's an account that I've got, which I didn't tell you, which I've got now, where somebody had a very precise, very clear dream of a particular pattern. And it was very impressive. And he woke up the next morning and he got out his set square and compasses and helix set and he traced it out. And he thought, yeah, I reckon I could do that. And it had never been seen before. And he found up a friend and said, look, I've got a great idea for a circle. It's too complicated for me to outline on the phone. What about if I come around now? I can draw it out for you. And if you like it, we can stick it in the field next week. And the guy said, fine. So he drove to his friend's house. And within a matter within a matter of about two miles, he had like this internal voice say to him, Look to your left. And it was to a field that he had no reason to look at because it was part of his daily commute. And he looked at a million times before. But he obeyed, so to speak. And there was this exact circle that he was just about to go to his friend's house to describe. So he obviously turned the car around and went home. What I drew from that is that I don't know if perhaps as that circle was being constructed, it somehow bled into his dream because it was so local to him. I'm not sure if this is a collective conscious thing where us humans are like communicating latently with ourselves. Or if there is something external which is triangulating and communicating with us. But those accounts kept on cropping up again and again. Again, lots of dream driven stuff and synchronicities that drive you to do things. People going to make a circle in a particular field and they'd be obstructed from doing it through all manner of complications. And then they go and make the circle in another field as like a substitute surrogate field. And then it turns out that the surrogate location has a direct relevance to the circle. And it wouldn't have been that case had they gone to the original location. It seems to be there's some sort of engineering involved. And that's what's coming up again and again and again.

Brandon: I think with a lot of people, at least from my perspective around here, we don't in America, they don't even really mention crop circles much anymore. Like it's kind of one of those things that was popular back in the 80s into the 90s. But as modern times have gotten, the interest of the American public has turned more into the whole actual UFO phenomena of seeing things, the orbs, the stuff in the sky. So they don't even really, I don't know of one I haven't looked into, but I couldn't even tell you one of the last times there's been crop circles popped up out here in America.

Citizen D: Yeah. Over here, we had a massive spike this year. There was about 25 circles, I believe. But I know because I've still got friends on the inner circle, so to speak. I haven't been in the fields for 10 years, but I still have got my connections. And I've been assured that some of the old teams have come out of retirement because the circles are all brilliant. But I can totally see why the viewpoint would be that way over the pond, because the original single circles brand and they look like birth flying sources. They look like, you know, spacecraft impressed into the corner and then flying up again. And as soon as we started to get onto the Led Zeppelin cover with the Alton Bonds east field connection, which was door keys and corridors and dumbbells. No UFO looks like that, mate, you know. But what had happened, the polemic, the connection between UFOs and crop circles was so ingrained within the public consciousness that they couldn't divorce the two. So we have this really clunky transition where they said, OK, well, these aren't compressed flying sources. it's now messages from our space brothers and I think that is a very clunky transition which is always glossed over by the research community because it's very hard to explain without justifying it as being human beings. When I started my journey, I was in disdain of people like myself, you know, I just thought we were hoaxers until I found out that there's some sort of spirituality and there's a connectivity to it. But now that I know what I know, I think that we are looking in the wrong place for the answers. Once you insert humans into this equation, the mystery is a thousand times bigger than the polemic of just, you know, flying saucers or ET. Once you insert humans, it's the same with the ufology, isn't it?

Brandon: Yeah, they think, and this is just my opinion, I can't say they think, but I personally think a lot of the UFOs that people are seeing are somehow man-made. I don't think that everything, I don't think that the military, yeah, I don't think that everything that people are seeing are little space aliens flying down here and investigating. I'm not saying that there's not that possibility, but I think about 99% of the things that most people can't see and that, like, they don't understand what they're seeing in the sky. I have a feeling it's man-made.

Citizen D: Yeah, do you know about the, I'm sure you do because you know your stuff. Do you remember the Belgian wave and it was, I think, I think it was called, was it called the TR-30? I think so, yeah. Yeah. Robbie Williams reported seeing that in America. My wife saw it in London and she said it was so clear and she said it was so big that you could only define the scale of it from the stars that it hid, if you understand. So there was a triangular patch where you couldn't see any stars and she said it moved gradually soundless and the sighting was longer than 10 seconds. So I agree with you. I think that might be military because it was such a defined sighting. Yeah, I do think that there is a psychological element to ufology, which a lot of the serious researchers are looking into now about possibly staged events and a connection with the psyche. And I see these parallels Brandon with the crop circles. I see exactly the same parallels between human-made crop circles and, um, and ufology now, I think it masquerades as, as, as ET that, that, that's my view. I don't think it, I'm not sure if it is ET at all. Exactly.

Brandon: I don't, I find it strange in the sense that, and I don't say this is not something that's not a phenomena, but I find it strange that something would travel all the way through space and do some of the things that they're doing. Now I get it. Like, if you look at how humans go about, say we're researching the bottom of the ocean, cause it's very hard for us to get there. So we kind of randomly will send something out there, bring back some photos of stuff. So yeah, I could see like these things coming out here and being like some sort of robotic drone that would come out here just to investigate the solar systems or in other places, there could be potential life, but I don't see a mass amount of creatures from a different planet or something flying around and just randomly popping in and out and not having any sort of communication with us, unless they are, and then, and then that's where the conspiracy part comes into play. Like who are they talking to? How would they know who to talk to? And what's the point? So, and then when you hear the abduction stories from people, a lot of that to me sounds very similar to what we do. Anyways, when we're tagging, say we pick up a shark out in the ocean and also they tag it, they release it. They keep going. That's almost what I think these abduction stories start to sound like they took someone they looked at them. They might've given them an implant and they put them back out in the wild, it's like their way of monitoring, but who really knows?

Citizen D: I think the trouble with the apology, there's two problems. Firstly is that I'm older than you. Okay. And when I was growing up as a ufologist, it was a beautiful, beautiful, pure time because we had no internet. There was no noise. All we had was like the new phone reports and we had fly source review and we had to be for the, uh, before, uh, magazines. It was just very pure. There wasn't, they would, if I, if I was researching UFOs now, I'd probably stop around 2010 because I don't trust anything that I see now. Because of, because of the internet and because of AI, um, it's just changed completely and it's such a shame that the purity of the phenomenon has gone now. Um, I don't think we're, I saw a lecture in 1992 and somebody said, um, Oh, we're, this is 1992. Oh, we're on the verge of disclosure. And if AI said it's never going to happen. And that was 34 years ago. And he said, I've been hearing this since the sixties. Yeah.

Brandon: We're getting quote unquote disclosure right now, but everything that's been being released is stuff that anyone within the community has already known about. It's that exactly. It's nothing that's like mind blowing to anybody.

Citizen D: It's the absolutely we knew about this in the ether. Anyway, what, what I find interesting, a parallel between ufology and crop circles is people call us hoaxes. Okay. Now for something to be hoaxed, there has to be a definitive article which can be proven categorically a hundred percent not to have been made by a human being. Now there's no circle that fits that definition. And the parallel with ufology for me is that I used to think that the Trinidad photos and the Trent ranch photos were the only two photos that could be trusted as being absolutely the real thing. But I'm even starting to doubt that now. So there's no, there's no definitive article within ufology where you can say, I bet my house on that. Do you understand? Right.

Brandon: I have seen stuff that has been presented to me. And I've also seen stuff with my own eyes in this area of these orbs and they're like orange burning balls, but can't say that they're not a flare just because where I live, we live near an air reserve base, but there's also within 70 something miles, another base where they come out and they do some sort of testing for some of the jets and they do release flares. So when people see these things, because the sequencing, like they'll see one orb lights up and then it fades out and another one pops up. It's like something's moving. So you think it's like a orange light flickering as it's going, but it could just be a flare and then another flare and then another flare, like they're out there testing their defense system. Basically.

Citizen D: Well, the relevance between that and the crop circles is that there's a military testing area called Salisbury plain and it stretches miles and miles and miles. And they used to have exercises on Tuesdays. You could basically time you watch by it and they would be exactly those flares that you've described. Okay. And a lot of people would come over and say, Oh, UFO and we say, no, it's and the trouble is Brandon. If you say, no, that's an exercise. It's every Tuesday. They're so ingrained, you know, in their belief system that they just think, yeah, Oh God, that guy's MI five, that guy's CIA is a plant, you know, you can't, you can't argue with these people. But the old phenomenon is definitely here in Wiltshire. It's even, even some of the trusted scientists that I noticed are saying for all of the Fisher price, um, science connected to crop circles, the orbs are real. And, um, a lot of people would, I mean, there's, there's the, the famous Oliver's castle video, which purports to show orbs creating, um, uh, every basic crop circle. It's extremely contentious. There's, there's the, you can pick holes in it all day, but, um, I've got loads of accounts where people have seen orbs as I think, as they've been creating circles and also as they've not been creating circles just on nights out around here. Um, now people say, well, I saw an orb and I saw a crop circle. So two and two together, the old must've made it. Um, I've got a couple of accounts in my book, which say that people have left the crop circle. They finished, they've gone out and they felt a compulsion to look behind them as they're looking at the field, as leaving the field, they've looked behind them and they've seen these orbs in like this scale let's trick eight track pattern as if they're auditing, as if they're swishing over the circle, as if they're like checking out the handy work. Um, so I believe that all phenomenon, I've heard it too many times is So I believe that all phenomenon, I've heard it too many times, is a real phenomenon. And it seems as if they are somehow attracted to what we've done. But obviously, people put two and two together and say, there's orbs over a clock circle. It must have made it. They've jumped to the conclusion. But I think that's a genuine mystery. I've got accounts of apparitions, possibly cryptids in this book. But as I've gone further and further from our chat last year, the thing that's really drawing me now is it's the synchronicities. And it's the correlation between dreams and coincidences and engineered mistakes. That's where I'm on a more psychological level with this now than I was when I spoke to you last time. I think there's something else at play that's interacting with our consciousness. But I don't know. I don't know if it's us subconsciously or unconsciously communicating with each other or whether there's something else at play. That's the only thing I didn't get to the bottom of on this book.

Brandon: This was from an interview that I did a few weeks ago. And the episode has not been released yet. It'll come out here eventually. But the guy that I had spoken with, he had said that during, and I've talked to so many people, I can't remember exactly how he worded it, but basically somehow he saw what we would consider the higher spirit, which would be like a God. And he said our consciousness was all, like it was literally the being was built from all of our consciousnesses together. So like it's all sort of an interconnected thing. The phenomena that I think happens or whatever, if you go down the route that he was referring to, a lot of the things that go on within our consciousness, it's like a collective conscience. So basically all the phenomena is something that we have manifested because we have all subconsciously been connected and is somehow manifesting these things. So the things that we experience is all because of the way we've made it into reality.

Citizen D: I think he's bang on. And that leads me onto something really important. And that is that when the circle makers get knocked and derided, the parallel that I draw is that people don't slag off wiccans and witches and pagans, okay? But you still need that human element to cast the spell and create magic, okay? But nobody says, oh, it's rubbish because it's cast by a human. But when humans make crop circles, we are all focused with an intent on the same pattern, okay? And just the exertion, the physical exertion and how exhausted you get over three or four hours, you've got between four and 20 people all completely focused on this same symbol which is placed like a temporary land tattoo in a very special ancient site. I think just the act of doing that and the intent of doing that is what creates the manifestation and is what creates the magic. Because people say, well, I had a magical experience in that circle. That means it can't be manmade. But I'd argue that it's just the absolute focus and dedication of up to 20 people focused on the same sigil, if you like, which actually implants the magic into it. And that, as you say, then that collects into the collective consciousness.

Brandon: It's almost in the sense of, and I don't wanna give it a name that's not accurate, but basically when everyone aligns into one thing, their energy is all being focused into one thing. So it's manifesting something from what you guys are doing. And it's the power of the consciousness that causes the phenomena.

Citizen D: I totally agree. That's where I am with it now. And there's an example, you just reminded me there. There was an example in my book where they drew a design. Half the team said, I want that extra circle in there to round it off. And the other team said, no, let's leave that circle out because that way it doesn't look, well, it's a long story. But basically half the team said, I want that circle there, like a single circle within the pattern. The other half said, no, we're not doing it. So anyway, they had a massive row and they said, let's get this thing done. So they got the circle done and they did it without this extra circle. And then they went to the circle next day when it was packed full of people and that extra circle was there and they hadn't done it. And that's where I think it is that whole thing of because, oh, because it's been manifested, because it's been discussed and it's now in the ether, something else has put that down. And it's very interesting when you go into a crop circle up to, sometimes only six hours after you've made it, if it's full of people, if you were to say to any of them, we were here six hours ago doing that, nobody would believe you because they're the belief systems, you know? But I've been into crop circles that I've been involved in six hours later when they're full of people and the vibe in it, Brandon, the vibe in the circle is different to the vibe we had when we were doing it. It's much, you feel like a power. There's something I can't explain to it. There's something arcane about it where you think, well, I know we made this, but it feels different now. It could be the intent of the people that are believing it that are in there, but I've been in circles that we've made and gone, the vibe is much more pronounced now than when we were leaving here at three o'clock this morning, you know?

Brandon: Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the things that people are experiencing paranormal wise are really just something that they've also subconsciously drawn. Basically, like the phenomena that they're having is something that we've manifested to be happening and the more we give it the attention, the more we give it the consciousness, the growth. I know they claim like if you don't, if it's a spirit, they claim you don't think about it, you don't talk about it or whatever because it feeds on that, it grows stronger with the belief system. I was like, well, it's almost like the consciousness aspect to everything because the more energy you're giving to something, the more power it's beginning. So it's almost like we're manifesting this stuff by our own consciousness.

Citizen D: That's why I try and keep away from the darker elements of crop circles. You know, sometimes I've been almost persuaded to lay down a pattern where the intent is not good and you look at it and you go, I think there's something black magic in that rather than white magic, you know, and then you're not particularly sure about the intent of the team leader. So I tended to walk away from projects like that because you think if you get this shit in your life, mate, and you start to give it an audience, that's when the trouble starts, you know?

Brandon: I 100% agree with that. I think there are certain things that don't need to be placed in because there are certain areas that people can go to and I can speak from experience. There's certain places you can go to and you can feel like there's something off. And I don't know what is, obviously not a crop, someone made crop circles, but has there ever been a time where you went out there and you were doing, and something just felt off in the location?

Citizen D: Yeah. Yeah, one thing happened at the time and one thing happened, that there's two different episodes. There was one, I've got an account where we had three teams out and they were out on the summer solstice night, but they hadn't put two and two together because the summer solstice night is a very powerful date in our calendar is because it's, you know, June the 20th leading to the 21st, there was three teams out who hadn't joined the dots about the date and they were all chased out of the fields. And because they couldn't see what was chasing them, you've got the whole Tarantino, Hitchcock thing where what you imagine is far worse than what's on the screen, you know? But they were all, none of them finished their circles. They said there was a rushing towards them in the crop but the key thing was each of those teams said, before it happened, just before it happened, all of us had this awful foreboding fear, this irrational fear, they were petrified and they didn't know why before the event they didn't know why before the event and then it was like the fear was being reinforced before before the event occurred and they all had these things rushing towards them and they all scarpered and there's three circles that remained unfinished and the pictures if you look they're online they weren't reported because they weren't finished but I think one of them actually Brandon I don't think that even started I think they I think they were just about to lay down the first perimeter line and this thing happened and the other two you can see them unfinished so but I had an instance also in the book where somebody went into a circle the day after it was made and there was something off about this circle there was nothing visually off with it it looked you know there was no nothing within the pattern that made it look off but they got added terrible vibe and as they walked towards the circle this foreboding feeling got stronger and stronger and stronger and then they walked away from the circle they said it was like walking from the shallow end to the deep end of a pool okay so as they walked away the foreboding and the fear dissipated and then they went ah this is all out of rubbish it's a summer's day nothing gothic can happen on a summer's day and they sprinted towards the circle and he said he felt like he'd been knocked out he felt like he'd been physically struck on the back of the head which he obviously I think he checked in the book I say he checked for blood okay um what that leads me on to say is that when you see these outlandish stories that I've got in the book of cryptids of apparitions of ghostly figures I'm not sure if the actual events are happening or if they are just perceived to be happening by the individual I'm not sure if there's something messing about with our consciousness which is leading us to believe that this stuff is happening I'd be interested to know if there was anyone outside those fields that heard the rushing in the crop or if it was just in the minds of the people that the bad experience was there for if you

Brandon: know what I mean yeah it's almost like when people go out into the woods and you're expecting expecting it you're expecting it and then when something happens even though you're expecting it your heightened senses the paranoia the fear draws in more so your mind has already had you thinking that this was going to happen like and I've got that in the

Citizen D: yeah I've got that in the book and you see with with crop circle making you've on top of that as if that's not enough we've also got the fear of being caught at any time so we are already in that heightened state that you're describing but we're getting it on the earthly plane as well because we're thinking anything that you know we've heard crickets and thought their mobile phones you're so paranoid when you're out there you know so we've we've already got that you know from a like a more practical sense of we're going to get chased we're going to get caught the farm with a dog walker whatever and then you've got that stuff you described on top and that is a pretty explosive cocktail if you see what I mean yeah it just it really does explode the whole thing we do go into the fields kind of galvanized and temp and tempered for these experiences because and they don't happen every time I have I have to tell you that you don't get a strange thing every time it's maybe 40 or 50 percent of the time and then sometimes you don't know it's strange until the next day and then you find out that your circle as a relevance tool has predicted a world event or something like that um so we go out tempered and we're galvanized because the example I've used in the book is if you go and see a slasher movie if you're galvanized for it the jump scare is not so bad you know like exorcist three you know um but uh even though we go in there tempered and we're kind of expecting things when it happens it's still a shock you know that it doesn't matter how much you prepare yourself when something really strange happens you're still really shaken although sometimes you don't see the relevant sometimes you won't realize the relevance until you're doing the you're doing your washing up a couple of weeks later and you go what the hell was that two weeks ago it's like there's a there's a delayed reaction to

Brandon: it you understand I know in the paranormal field people say that they it's like a hitch hiker effect something manifests and follows the person has there been anything like that you've heard of from when people made crop circles that they felt like maybe something like an energy from the circle followed them afterwards in in a literal sense I've got an

Citizen D: account where um and the shame of this is this the person actually had it on video but their device was so old that they couldn't work it anymore but there was an example where somebody had made a circle and as they were making it they felt as if there was an additional member there they sort of kept on seeing something in the corner of their in the corner of their eye I thought oh that's that's so and so that's Bill and then Bill's to his right hand side instead of his left so they all had this prevailing feeling that somebody else was in the field with them and the next day um they went back to the circle because you've always got that temptation it's like CSI you know you've always got the temptation to go back the next day and they said that as as they were walking around the circle they actually heard tracking footsteps behind them and there was nobody there and they described it as being like if you have like and a net private detective in a film where or in a cartoon where if you're walking and then it's walking with you to try and mask its own footsteps but then there's a two second delay where it stops and they had this on video where they would be walking and they'd stop and there'd be crunch crunch behind them and they did it four or five times so it was if this thing was literally following them and they said to me that even though it was a glorious sunny day and there was other people in the field they had this macabre gothic feeling and they couldn't get out of there quick enough but i've also heard about people that have bought something home with them right maybe because there's been something bad that they've done within the circle you know so yeah i in fact i had an account but i didn't put it in because i just because i tried to really restrict the negative stuff because i don't want to bring this stuff into my life brandon but there was a couple of accounts where there was somebody came home and there was poltergeist activity in their house for about a week after and they had this feeling of like even though i live alone i don't feel i'm alone you know and i was going to put that in the book but i thought no something just told me not to put that in there yeah sometimes you got to go what's the feelings you get i i had the chapter written and proofread and structurally edited and i thought no i'm not going to put that in i just the the vibe was off in the same way as the vibe is off in the field sometimes i looked at the structural edit it was a nicely written piece i was proud of it but i thought something something was telling me you don't put that account in there and i feel better for not doing it either i have got one that i debated about putting it in there where somebody said that they were drawing a design and they said as they were drawing it it was like automatic writing they said it was like he said i could have let go of the pen and i think it would have kept on going um and i put that in there simply because he told the story to me three times and i thought the imagery was so strong and i thought well maybe that is a collective consciousness and and the power of the will you know kind of thing but he said i drew this thing and as it was drawing i didn't know what was happening i had an interview

Brandon: that i did with it was actually in person because for the documentary that i filmed and i did not include it because something about it just i didn't feel comfortable releasing it but i've never even mentioned it but i'll i'll bring it up now they claimed that they had an encounter with a little bay folk person they basically said it looked like a fairy they thought it was a big bug and it was for all intents purposes basically what we would consider a fairy but they killed it oh what they swatted it thinking it was a bug and after they did it and like whatever they realized it wasn't what they thought it was oh shit and i kind of was like i mean if that was true then why didn't you keep it like have some like look what we found you know like so i would kind of lean like maybe it's not 100 honest about it because you would have had the proof but at the same time it's like oh shit what do we just do and so like i don't know i just got a bad vibe from it and for some reason like i just went with my gut and i was like i don't I got, and I was like, I don't really want to put this in there. Yeah. Yeah.

Citizen D: But don't you think that that goes back to what I said before about the perception thing where they perceived that it was there and I wonder if a person next to them would have looked over and seen it as well. I think that there is something that play, which actually connects directly into our psyche with some of this stuff and we think it's there. Um, but what's interesting when Jack Valle talks about the odds factor and Jenny Randall talks about the odds factor, which is like this sometimes before a UFO experience or before something completely bizarre, you get that kind of glitch, you understand where reality just looks to be a mockup rather than actual reality. You see this in the, in the literature all the time. I think Zamora had it before he had the encounter with the with the craft in the road. There is some sort of glitch. It's like watching CCTV on telly, you know, of an interrogation room on, on a police program and it's an empty room. And, uh, even though nothing is altered in the room, just for a split, split, split second, it appears to have changed, you know? Um, and I think there's something to be said between that and ufology and the experiences in the fields as well. There seems to be some tiny little change before something remarkable happens. Do you understand? Yeah.

Brandon: There's, I've actually heard this from other people too. Like they can feel the energy of a room completely change. And well, you know how people, even in the paranormal aspect, they say like the room goes cold. Like they get like a cold chill or something like there's something like it almost, it signals them that there's something off. And that goes back to what we were saying earlier about that. You get the feeling like something was off. Off. And you get it in silences as well, don't you? And a lot of people have reported, like they just felt like they were being watched or something, which I actually think is an interesting thing because how many times have people felt like they were being watched? So they look around like someone's looking at me, you look around someone was looking at it because the other person turns their head. That means we have some sort of an ability to understand that we're being looked at.

Citizen D: There's been scientific experiments in that with people in two way mirrors and people looking at the mirror because yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Brandon: Like we have that somehow we have that sensory that we just understand that. So I always wondered what other senses are we capable of that we just aren't in tune with. Yeah.

Citizen D: But this, this, this, this is a whole thing with, with what I'm doing is that because I live, I live in the heart of, of, of these neolithic, these neolithic sites. And when you go to them, Brandon, I explained this to Shannon Legro on a podcast a couple of weeks ago. She was lovely. The first time I visited Avebury, which is a really powerful site. It's like the, it's a very, very powerful stone circle. The first time I went there, when you drive towards it, it hits you really quickly. There's no preparation. It's like mundane countryside. And then you're right in it. There's no argument. You say it's on a bend. And the second I saw all these stones and I found myself in this area, I thought, Oh God, I understand it all now. Like the, like the skulls have fallen from my eyes. I thought, Oh, I understand everything now I've got it now. And then my friend said, well, explain it. And then I went, it's gone. It's gone. And it's what I'm trying to say is I think that our, our ancients, I think there are, I think our predecessors, I think the people that built the stones, stones, stone circles, I think they, I think they had what we've lost now. I think it's been kicked out of us through this technocratic age. And we think we're, we think we're, we think we're advanced. I think we're in the dark ages. Honestly, I think this is the dark ages we're in now. I think historians will look back on this time and it will be like medieval, honestly. Um, but I think that the, our ancestors were in tune with what you're describing here. And we forgotten it or had it suppressed out of us. There's a lot of interesting, what's interesting with the crop circle phenomena is that we have people telling us like enlightened people telling us we're all psychic. We're all incredible. You know, we're multi-dimensional beings. We've got the power to achieve anything. Oh, but no, you can't do crop circles. You know, it's like, it's like the people that, that, that knock, that knock the circle, make is the same. Well, nobody can do that, you know, in five hours. Well, yeah, but you just told us that we can do anything, you know, but I think that we had this powered brand and I think it's gone. I'm not sure if we'll get it back. I don't think we're in a psychologically mature state now that we can actually sort of tap into it. And, but I think, I think our ancestors had it. I think the people that built the pyramids had it. I think, I think all these, these ancient artifacts and we've got artifacts in this, in this part of the world, such is such a big project that Silbury Hill took apparently a hundred years to make. Why would you undertake a project that you knew that only your grandchildren would see realize it's, it's got to be pretty important.

Brandon: You know, you kind of glitched there for a second. So I don't know if I was able to record what you were just said.

Citizen D: So, but yeah, it froze up the gist is, I think we were all tapped into this before and I think our ancestors had it and the people that built the stone circles that took to honor this area had it. And you get, you get the similar thing with Peru and the Nazca lines. I think it's, it was like, I think these were like memorials more to like point to future generations. This is what's, this is what's important here. And I think we've lost it. I think we've lost it now in the technocratic age. We think that we're advanced technologically spiritually. I think this is our dark ages at the moment.

Brandon: I think a lot of people don't understand that look at the pyramids, look at some of the things that ancient cultures were building. There's, there are certain structures and everything and people want to throw out the ancient aliens and all the ancient astronauts like theory stuff. But for me, it was all built by people somehow one way or the other. I don't know if they had a technology that we don't know about, but there are things that I point to that I find interesting that people in Egypt were building pyramids. You also had people in South America building pyramids.

Citizen D: Mexico, same thing. Yeah.

Brandon: And then you had people in, I think, isn't there some over by China and they find some stuff that's similar in China? Independent people, completely unconnected doing the same thing. What were the, what was the point of that? And then a lot of these align with specific stars. We're like, well, that's all they got to look at. They had to look up in the sky. It's like, yeah, but that still takes a lot of understanding. And we're calling them primitive people, but they were very smart in order to build the way that they built these things. And they've lasted thousands of years.

Citizen D: I think that the crop circles are just temporary versions of that, that only lasts for a few days to a few weeks. But I think the same principles apply. When I first saw the complicated ones, I thought, how the heck, I thought, I said, it can't be people. That's why I called the book. It can't be people. It can't be people. And then I went out with the team. And although I couldn't do it the next day, I could go into another circle the next day, which I did a different circle and say, well, I couldn't do it by night, but I know how, I know how it was done. So I just watched it last night, you know, and you walk out the circle and you with it, with a different, a different perspective. Cause you've seen it done. I think unless you're an expert by experience and you've actually gone out and been involved in the team, you really haven't got the right to tell anybody what can and can't be done. You understand? I think I was the same. I was the same for, for I went out there. I thought this is, there's no way this is done by people. They'll be, they'll be building a basis circle that I'm involved in tonight for my first one. And then you walk out of it and you, as the sun's coming up and you go, geez, that's just mad. But you've seen them doing it. And you know, and you've seen the construction methods and you've seen you've gone, Oh God, that's how they do the straight lines. It's so basic.

Brandon: I know how we kind of talked about it in the first interview last year, but I want to kind of go back to it. There are instances like with you and like, and you've talked with other people, like you're drawn to a specific area to do a circle. And there's really no explanation as to why, but someone like when the specific, like locations decided of where you're going to do this, like circle or whatever, this intricate design, the planning stages are like, who usually comes up with like why they want to go here and why we're Why they want to go here and why we're doing this type of design.

Citizen D: Um, the location, it could be, it could be one of a couple of things with the, with the location, you go, well, we, if we part there, we won't get disturbed. It's, it's, it's really out of the way. We're probably going to be okay. We won't get caught. Um, sometimes you, you can't get to your first location. There's something which impedes you, which you couldn't allow for in the reconnaissance, you know, like you go to do it and there's a Winnebago, there's a Winnebago part there or something. Um, but this is what I say in the book. I'm not sure how much of this is actually us. Yeah. It's a rabbit hole, Brandon. I've got an argument in the book where somebody had this unusual design, which had never been done before. And they've gone to make it. And then somebody else has beaten them to the punch a week before with exactly the same design and the, and the, the teams fell out because they said, where did you get my design from? Well, it's not, and then they realized that there was no theft involved. I've just been independently inspired to do this particular thing, which you've been, which had never been done before. Um, so I could give you an answer, but this is what I think is part of the mystery. Right.

Brandon: That's why I asked because there's something that inspires people to go about doing these types of things.

Citizen D: Like, yeah, it's just, I said this to Shannon a couple of weeks ago. We get the same parallels band in, in all art, in all art, you know, you get, you get filmed, you get film script writers, you get musicians that say that these ideas come to me fully formed, you know, and that, and normally it's when they're thinking about something else, they're not even concentrating on their job and some, something will happen. I mean, the Beatles said it all the time. There's always a catalyst. You don't know where you don't know if it's the id, if you don't, you don't know if it's internal or you don't know if it's the muse and the, and it's something which, which, which you're just receiving. You understand I'm not sure if it's internal or if it's, or if it's received.

Brandon: When you first started to do like the crop circles, you were more into the UFO phenomenon prior to that. Right? Totally.

Citizen D: That was my total motivation. Yeah.

Brandon: Then you somehow got in with people that were doing crop circles. And then from there, like, but it's almost like something drawing you to that. Like, and then you're making these circles, but the original people that say it was all made by people. So the first person that made a crop circle, what was the intent that they had to do this circle? Were they just trying to do it to make, make people think that something did that? Like there was, had to have been an intent for something. No, no, you're right. Yeah.

Citizen D: It was the original ones, Doug and Dave, they did it because they'd seen the tally nests in Australia where, you know, there were these circular patches in grass and they realized that if it's in crop, the crop's higher. So they'd be more pronounced. So their, their original, their original idea, I think I read that they'd been on a load of night watches and hadn't seen any UFOs. And I thought, okay, let's just do this instead. So people will think there's been a UFO. So that's what they did. They made the single circle indentations to make it look as if it was birth flying saucers that had landed and then flown up again. That was, that was the original, that was the original motivation.

Brandon: Cause a lot of people, it started with the circles, but then they start, the designs got more intricate and more intricate and the things that come out there of some of the ones that I've seen, like the geography, like the geometry to them and everything. Like it, it's amazing. Yeah, absolutely. It's a very detailed process of how you guys would create them.

Citizen D: And I know, I know I might no secret of this. I am in a position to write this book because I'm an author and I'm a journalist. Okay. So it was other people which who compelled me to do this. And I've said all along, I was in no way in the premier in the premier league of circle makers, but I worked with a couple, but I was, I was perfectly placed to write this book because I've got the tools to do it. But I looked at the intricacies of some of the crop circles that were done by friends. And I agree with you. You look at it before you start making and before you go out and see it done, you go, it's impossible. And then you see how they do it. But we are using sacred geometry in sacred land. And I'm getting back to that intent thing again, you know, the magic of all being focused on that same pattern and just the physical exertion of doing it, the physical effort and the energy of 20 people, up to 20 people, all focused on that same pattern. You know, it's, that's what I think generates the magic.

Brandon: When the pattern gets decided of what the like the design is going to be, the design itself has its own form of purpose, like power. People don't know why they're doing that design. They don't understand, but that's the design everyone's drawn to. That's the design that everyone decided and agreed to this is what we're going to do. It gives that, like you said before, a sigil. It gives it a power in order to, for them to do. It's almost like they've manifested this now. Now they have the ability to do this and they have to do this because that's what the intent for it was to be.

Citizen D: I'm not sure what the experience was for other circle makers, but in my case, there was never a collective committee, all, you know, saying, let's sit down and draw one together. You tended to have a team leader and it was his design. And then we'd say, okay, we'll do yours this week and then we'll do Jim's next week. You know, there was no collaboration other than just like fine tuning and just embellishment. You tend to find that one team leader had, was leading and they had already done their design and had it ready to go. And then the agreement was, okay, well, let's do yours today and we'll do somebody else's next week. So there was no collaboration in what I saw like a committee of people deciding on the design. It could be different with other circle makers, but that's my experience anyway.

Brandon: I understand like nowadays it's easy to get in contact with people and there's groups and all sorts of things. But back in the 80s and everything in the height of it, how did people connect to one another to know that they were making crop circles? It wasn't like something you go out there and say to people, hey, I'm a crop circle because it's illegal. Some people can say you're basically damaging crops or you're damaging private property. So it's not like you can go out there and advertise it. So how did they all get up? Like how did the groups form? Like I know it had to be like done in secret, but how did each one get to connect?

Citizen D: There's no like Freemasons lodges for crop circle makers or there's no cabal. What would generally happen is it's certainly in my experience, you go out and you don't need sometimes no one member of the team, and there'd be three other people there. You might not ever see them ever again, but you might get on and have a common interest and swap numbers and say, look, what about next year? We've got a year to put our stuff together. Let's get in touch next year and then use their friends. Before you know it, there's this part of the pun circle of people where you think, well, yeah, there's loads of people I could use now. But a lot of the time, you never see them again, Bradden, but you get to know when you've been making circles for a while and I'm out of it now, but I still know a lot of people when you're actually in the inner hub of it, so to speak, then you'd be in the pub and somebody would say, oh, somebody walk in, you go, he made the dragonfly last week, because there's this secret little society involved, but it's very loose and there's no construct to it. You just get to know who's who. Sometimes you let them know, sometimes you don't, but there's no structure to it. There's no ordering to it. It's just like a little community. But then a crop circle will go down and nobody knows who's done it. It's a it's a new team. They just come from nowhere. There's always surprises. You don't know everybody, but you can still have a little collective of people. But what's important is that the researchers, and this is where I think there's some deception. The researchers will say to you, you can always tell the man-made ones, they're rubbish, they're wonky. Look at it, it's a mess. What they don't tell you, and what a lot of them do know, is that I use what I call the auntie's basement analogy, and that is if you're in a new grunge band, all right, you can rehearse. It's like Bill and Ted. You can rehearse in auntie's basement and be rubbish, okay, and you can just tighten yourselves up and you don't go and do your first gig until you're ready. you're ready, you could take six months. If you're a crop circle team you don't have that luxury, you know, if you're a new team going out and learning on the fly and you don't know the techniques properly, you'll just make rubbish, it will just look rubbish and it will be rubbish and then with repetition, with experience you get better and better and better, but the community, the research community says well that's rubbish so it's man-made, okay, because they're attributing the rubbish ones to new inexperienced teams that don't know what they're doing, okay, when in reality those teams in two or three years will be making decent stuff if they carry on, you know, but that's something that I do see and I think there's deception there because people have made demonstration circles which have been brilliant, you know, and like there's, you know, very little publicity for them within the community,

Brandon: you know. Do you think that people now have been, and this is me just kind of being a conspiracy brain type person, but do you think there's people now that have been paid or instructed to go out and do these things just to try and discredit some of the stuff that could be considered real phenomena? I see people, I've got a chapter at the end of the

Citizen D: book which again I wasn't going to put in but I thought no the vibe's good for this, you see people dropping in and they come from nowhere and they know everybody's history, they know us all by name, they know our biographies, you know, and they sort of ensconce themselves within us, you know, and then you think and then a year later they'll disappear and then you go back and you think who the hell was that bloke, you know, so I'm not sure, I don't know if there's any sinister elements to it but there are certain people who come into this community and that they're in the inner sanctum immediately, you know, like they've already found out something about all of us and then you'll go out of them four or five times and then they'll just disappear, the phones just, you know, the phones get cut off, there's no email, they're slightly, they're ghosts and I've got that in the book because that happened to a lot of people that I met that I spoke to they're saying, you know, what happened to someone so I don't know, sometimes I think about that and go where did that guy come from and no one's ever seen him since, you know, they're like really totally embroiled in the community and then they just never, you never hear from them again, you know, I don't know, I don't know, again I try not to dwell on that stuff, you know,

Brandon: it's pretty creepy isn't it? If someone come up and knew all about me and everybody else I would, my suspicions would be on height because how do you know all this information? Yeah. Like especially if we're in a group that most people don't know each other, you only interact when you do a design, you might not see that person ever again, how does someone come up and already know all these people but to me that's very suspicious. Well, they'd argue

Citizen D: that your Facebook profile is open and they've got enough on you from social media but you're

Brandon: right. Even then though, like it's not like your guys are advertising you're out there making crop circles, well how would they know that anyway? You know what I mean? That's just

Citizen D: I don't know, very very suspicious. I've got really weird stuff and I've got an example in the book of somebody just sitting 100 miles away from where the hub is, they were back home in Birmingham or something like that and somebody just sat on a park bench next to them and started to talk to them about crop circles and they dropped something in the conversation which was about a crop circle that he'd made. I mean what the fuck is that about? Yeah. That's the area that I don't like that part of it. I could have done a whole few chapters on that but I thought no just keep it brief and just make the point and

Brandon: walk away from that bit, you know? That's always something that I've always wondered about is if there's ever been people that's been planted into within these communities, not so much- Well the thing is Brandon, if they could we'd never know. Because you don't necessarily know the people anyways but I guess the perfect plant would be someone that you don't know and you don't ever see again but they don't come out there and say they know everything about you. To me that's the first red flag that would come up is like how the hell do you know who I am? How do you know anything about me or this

Citizen D: person? Yeah I've got a circle maker who's a friend and he said this guy used to carry him to his house for dinner and watch football with him and liked his wife cooking but he said in retrospect when he said it felt like he'd been airlifted into my existence and then airlifted back out again okay and he said that there was no harsh words or anything like disagreements and then he said to me you know what I only ever knew him by his nickname I don't think I knew his second name after knowing him for a year or two years it's like he was there embroiled and then gone. Yeah it could be journalists I don't know it could be something less sinister it could be journalists or people trying to I don't know documentaries or something I don't know but if they're good at their jobs then you're not

Brandon: going to know are you? It's weird for me because I live out in the middle of the country and the way the size of America a lot of us are all spread out unless you live in like the huge cities or something like that then obviously there's a lot more people but the way we are here being so spread apart you can see I've got neighbors I don't know I couldn't even tell you their name like it's not like we interact with each other but when you live in a bigger city and if you live in like some of these high-rise apartments or something like where you have someone like right next to you you get to know people but because we're so spread out here in the country we don't know everybody so those people to me don't exist because they live there but I don't know who they are they don't impact my life and so people popping in and out I could understand it happening here but it is strange to be have someone that you actually know and I've had plenty of quote unquote friends that I've been friends with that I'm not friends with anymore I don't know whatever happened to them but that doesn't mean they just dropped off the face of the earth yeah it could be I'm

Citizen D: reading too much into it it could be it's innocent and that the bloke on the park bench maybe it was his friends winding him up you just don't know you you always because of the because of the situations that we're dealing with and we're dealing with crop circles and UFOs you're always going to jump to that stuff there could be something innocent to it you know but because of this because of the subject matter you tend to amplify everything it's like a theater of the strange you know you're always going to go to that place aren't you there could be something innocent to it I just don't know but I thought I'd better record this stuff in the book because it was happening you know this it could be you just don't know

Brandon: this was something that happened the other day and could be 100% unrelated to anything but I kept seeing we I figured like I was somewhere I was in a store and I kept seeing the same person as I was walking and obviously I'm in a store so you're going to see people but I just felt like this person no matter what aisle I went to they would end up being in the same aisle and I didn't think much of it until later after I was getting ready to leave and then I'm in the checkout and I look back and they're also in the line for the checkout so every aisle that I went into I saw that person and I was checking out they were back there too so it's like was were they following me or we just happened to be shopping for the same exact stuff in the same aisles like it's just looking back at it it's odd but maybe it was it's just in I don't know they never spoke to me I didn't look out we didn't communicate I just was noticing that they were in the same miles that I was

Citizen D: at yeah I did a podcast last year with uh the older tea podcast and we we actually discussed we said look if we if we pretended that we were in a reality where we weren't interested in this stuff would would our diet if you were to keep a journal of all the strange things that happen to you on a week-to-week basis just on your any day-to-day life would that generally be any different to when you're in like you you fall into you know strange situations um it just seems to be I've got an example where um a crop circle maker was in the gym and he saw somebody that he hadn't I mean we all get this he saw somebody that he hadn't seen for 20 years an old neighbor and he was he went up to him to speak to him and he was a foot away then he realized oh it's not him and he hadn't seen him for 20 years and then he went into a crop circle two hours later and the actual guy was there okay um and that's the sort of thing that people do report that sort of thing happening but because he saw him in a crop circle rather than in walmart it just made the experience much much more exaggerated you see what I mean right I'm just not sure I'm just not sure if this stuff happens in our in our day-to-day lives anyway but we tend to amplify it because we're all into ufology and we're all into spiritualism and we're all into the paranormal stuff you know I'm just not sure if it'd be any different if we went into these aspects of our lives and maybe this stuff is happening anyway you know there was someone that I saw

Brandon: way, you know, there was someone that I saw recently, this was last week. I hadn't saw the person in 17, 18 years. I saw them walk by and then I randomly added them on Facebook because it reminded me the next day I saw them at breakfast and I actually talked to them in person, but what is the likelihood of someone that you haven't seen in all these years, you see them one day and then you see them the very, very next day again, it's weird. I know.

Citizen D: And the question to all of this is a lot of the time, why? I've got an example in the book, which is crazy. Where a circle maker, he ditched, he ditched his, he ditched his original idea for a circle because somebody else had done something similar. Or whatever reason he ditched his first idea. He had a team assembled and he just drew this thing on the back of a shopping receipt and said, that will do. And because it didn't really, because it was so strange, he said, well, if we get it wrong, it won't matter. Cause nobody was, nobody knew what it's supposed to be in the first place. You know, it wasn't like a star or anything. It's he drew this design. That'll do. Got it done. And it was well received and it was, it was a good pattern. And, um, they're in breakfast. They had breakfast later that day or brunch 11 AM. And it was like this school dinner type. I'm not sure if you have it in the States. It was, it was a school dinner bench set up, you know, we had this long bench and everyone sits, gets, gets their breakfast and brunches sit down. And this bloke said, um, nudge up we're. And so you, so this bloke nudged up and he looked at this guy to his left and Brandon, he had a shirt on right. And it was like the color of like a mustard color, like a field. Yeah. And the patterns on it were, um, repeated prints of this exact design that this guy had drawn on the shopping receipt. It was exactly, I said, I said, was it in bed issues or anything? Is it, was it just the same kind of, was it similar? He said, it's exactly what I did in that field. And it's exactly what I wrote on that receipt. And the overall question is, if I'd gone somewhere else for breakfast, would he have been there? Why did he decide, why did he decide to put that shirt on that day? All these myriad, myriad of questions. And then the ultimate question was, okay, but what does it all mean? Exactly.

Brandon: There's been times where I've thought of things and then the things that I've thought about not so much the same exact day, but sometimes it has been like, something will happen. And I've thought about someone like this, or I thought of something and all of a sudden within a few minutes, my wife will say what I was just thinking. So it's like, how are we thinking? Like, maybe I was thinking of this actually has happened. I was thinking about going and getting ice cream. And then a few minutes later, my wife's like, Hey, you want to go get ice cream? Well, yes, I was just thinking about that. Like it's strange how stuff like that happens. Yeah.

Citizen D: It's what she shell Drake calls it the species field. And he says it's, it is a connectivity between people that sometimes that are close as well. And it's the collective ownership. It's, it's like somebody, somebody described it to me as like, um, and it comes back to crop circles as well. It's like a Google clouds, mate. As soon as you have the idea, it's in the cloud, you know? Yeah. And it's there to be plucked down.

Brandon: It goes right back to what that guy was talking about, about how we, the God is basically all of our collective consciousnesses interconnected to each other.

Citizen D: I've got a really strange story in this book, um, where we had four people and they were going to, um, build a logo of a band they liked. And they said, cause they all like the same band. I mean, let's, let's do this logo. Okay. But they all had like different skillsets. So what they did, they said, okay, let's get a separate piece of paper. Let's draw the bit of the logo that we'd, that we'd be good at within our skillsets and we'll put them all together and let's see if we can make this crop circle of this, of this band logo. So they did their particular drawings, these sketches on different pieces of paper based on what their skills were, put it together and went shit. Yeah, we can definitely do this. And then somebody that they knew who knew they were circle makers said, are you guys stupid? You've been wearing. You've been wearing their tee shirts all season. You know, it's not going to take Colombo. They're going to link it to you completely. So they didn't do it. Um, but over the space, over the space of the next seven to 10 days, four different circles that were made by other teams, um, all appeared within, you know, a respectable facility of the, of the pub bench that they'd done these, this, these four composite drawings. And each of these designs had a single composite from each of those drawings, but they cropped up and they said they looked as if they were grafted on. They said they didn't detract from the circles. They didn't particularly embellish them, but they looked as if the circles would have been just as good without them, but they all had one piece of paper, you know, the idea from each piece of paper turned up in four crop circles. And then you, you get, you, then you really get back to that thing of it was in the ether, it's intent. It was out there. It's the Google cloud. The other teams, maybe they pulled it down, you know? Yeah. It's the same thing. Isn't it? It's the same thing.

Brandon: Yeah, there's a, I think it's somehow all connected one way we're all connected or all the phenomena is somehow connected to us. And I don't know.

Citizen D: I actually, I said that at the end of the book, I said, maybe it's humanity. That's the mystery here. And our ancestors knew all this and we are just floundering because we don't know what it all means. Cause we've forgotten or it's been suppressed in us. I actually closed the book that way and say, what, what if it's us? What if it's humanity? That's the, that's the magical thing here.

Brandon: You know, I agree with them. Well, yeah, we've been going on for about 75 minutes. So that's a good place to leave it. We, you ended where you ended the book. So why don't we let the audience know where they can find your book? Yeah.

Citizen D: Um, it's on Amazon and I've got it under paperback Kindle and audio book facility, uh, options. And it's called, it can't be people. Voices from the inner circle. And I've done it under my pen name of citizen D. And the reason why I did it under the pen name Brandon, apart from the, apart from the illegality of circle making, even though I've not done it for 10 years. Um, I wanted the, the, the accounts to be speaking rather than the author, I mean, so I wanted to, I wanted the store and I've said to the other podcasters that I've spoken to, um, I've much enjoyed my time with you, but you won't be speaking to me again, because I'm leaving the subject now. Um, I have actually got other projects that are going on with my journalistic other stuff. And, um, I've just wanted to get this story out there. I'm not looking to make a name for myself on the lecture circuit any rubbish like that. I just wanted to get these accounts so that at least the people knew that this stuff is going on. And even if you're not in a position in your life yet, where you're prepared to accept that the human beings, you know, aren't hoaxes, you've got to understand that with human made crop circles, there's something really strange going on. Okay. So even if you're in the part of your journey, we are not prepared to accept that, you know, that they're all manmade. That's fine. I don't care. Just bear in mind, don't slag off the human stuff because there's something really effing weird that's going on spiritually or we don't know what it is and that you can find, yeah, it's on Amazon and you'll find it there, but you won't be speaking to me again. Well, we can keep in touch and email, you know,

Brandon: I, we won't be speaking, but no, definitely. I do hope that the book does well. I hope people actually check it out. I'll make sure it's already, it's already, yeah, it's already happening. I said, I will make sure to put it in the, uh, show notes for anyone listening, but D it's been a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Brandon.

Citizen D: Thank you so much, my friend. And, uh, we'll keep in touch privately. Okay. Yep. Not a problem.

Brandon: You have a great rest of your day. Yep. Thank you. See you later. Bye. If you would like to be a guest on tinfoil tells, remember to send an email to tinfoil tells podcast at gmail.com. Or you can also go to tinfoil tells.com and go to the contact section. Just make sure to reach out and get ahold of me and we will get something scheduled for a future episode. You can also find tinfoil tells on Facebook and Instagram. Just look for tinfoil tells podcast and reach out to me that way too. Remember to share the show around word of mouth is the best way to help the show grow. And just remember truth comes at cost. Are you willing to pay the price?