Ep. 70: The Horrors of Amityville

Brandon: I'd like to take this time to welcome my guest Rich. Rich, thanks for coming on and talking with me tonight. Hi, everybody. I hope you're all doing well today or tonight whenever you decide to listen to this podcast. And Brandon, you mentioned this being your first recording and it being a bit awkward. I want you to know that I excel at awkward. And hopefully I can make this as smooth of a transition as possible for you tonight. Yeah, usually I've never done an interview for my own show. I guess I take that I have, but we've never used the actual video. I've been on a Zoom call and someone's like, can you have your camera on? It's weird talking to no one. I was like, no, I prefer it that way. What? Well, I know it's a big step for you. So I appreciate you including me on this momentous step with the 10 Boiled Tales podcast. I'm always the type of person that I'm like, yeah, I don't want people looking at me. That's just not how I am. You know, I completely understand that. The poor gets you far. I'm one third of the founding lore fathers podcast. I do a show with two of my best friends and we talk about weird stuff. And we tried doing a true crime podcast and it was extremely depressing. I don't know how people make a living doing that because I just can't talk about people getting slaughtered like that. But anyways, we have a YouTube channel that we do not use because it is a bit odd putting our face out there talking about some of the strange stuff that we're talking about. So I completely understand that. And, you know, even if this only turns into an audio only podcast, I'm OK with that as well. As of right now, I'm kicking around the idea of releasing this on video. Hopefully, except with my other podcast, Dark Side of the Scene, we're doing live streaming. So every Wednesday night, people can come see me and my co-host talk to bad people and look like jackasses. But that's awesome. That's awesome, dude. So before we start diving into this, the story about the Amityville horror, I want to tell you that I've listened to several of your shows. And there was one show in particular that I have a gripe with you about, and that's the interview you did with the guy who was part of a vampire cult. He was a photographer for vampire cult or something like that. Oh, yeah, that was the recent one. So he came out and started talking about the BDSM side of their vampire sex cult. And you stopped asking him questions about his BDSM vampire sex cult. So for future reference, and some of us want to know more about that situation. So if you come across somebody who's willing to talk about their vampire sex cult, please push them on that matter. Yeah, I try not to pound any agenda into what I do. So like if they didn't want to bring it up, I'm not going to ask about it just because I don't want to push anyone like a certain direction. Oh, I understand completely, man. Well, so let's just I guess let's dive into this Amityville horror stuff. So I know a little bit about the background of it. Like I'm trying to think what the guy's actual name is. Well, I think it's I think it's safe to assume that all horror fans and anyone born in the 70s or 80s knows about the story or at least has heard some references to it. But that said, I recently watched a movie on Netflix called The Family Switch. Now, it's it's a decent comedy. It's a Christmas movie. So if you're not into it right now, that's fine. Wait till next year. But there's a line in there made. It made my wife actually laugh out loud, which is a rare thing for. So Ed Helms, he's the father in the movie. He's playing a music teacher and he's trying to motivate his class. And he wants him to play with his hearts. And he makes a Star Wars analogy about how Luke Skywalker was able to take down the Death Star. And the student looks him square in the face and says something like, I was born in 2010. I don't know what you're talking about. So for the listeners out there who have never heard of the Amityville horror, there's about 10 books, probably more than that ton of books that are out there. There's more than 20 films that are out there. And anytime you see a spooky house on a hill with like a red roof on it, it's some random show nine times out of 10. They're making a reference to the story. And if any of the listeners out there are interested, feel free to hop on the YouTube. There's actually several free movies that are on there and usually have to watch with some ads, but you don't need to pay for anything to watch some of these movies. Now, the condensed version of the story is that a family with a few kids buys a house where the previous owners had been viciously murdered by one of their kids. Now, the people quickly find out the house is haunted as fuck and this weird demonic spirit starts toying with them. He even yells at a priest and then like sane people, they bail and move out of the house within a month. Now, at least some of that's true. Now, the house is real and it is located in Long Island. The story we know comes from a book titled The Amityville Horror written by Jay Anson and is published in September of 1977. Now, Anson wrote this book based on over 45 hours of recordings given to him by the previous owners, George and Kathleen Lutz. She goes by Kathy. Now, these are the second homeowners and they were the ones that were allegedly chased out of the home. And interesting nugget about this is that Anson never actually interviewed the Lutz family. He did all of this based on the recordings that they provided to them. And before we dive too deep into their story, I think it's important that we talk about the Defos or the Defios. I don't know how to pronounce their name. The previous family, the Fino. There you go. I'll go with that. I'll be honest with you, Brandon. I'm not good with words. Sometimes they elude me. I will do my best to try to get that right. You do a podcast and you're not good with words. Well, you know, science and math and you know, there's things out there that I excel at. Words are not them. Yeah, words are not one of them. And that's that's why, you know, we're not a professional outfit over at the Founding Warfathers. We're very much an amateur radio show. That's literally me here. Well, so the the Defios family, they're a family of seven. They lived in this large colonial style house. And from one side, it kind of looks like a face. The house. I mean, the house looks creepy. But I say that the same way like people see pictures of like serial killers and they talk about how like their eyes are dead or there's no emotion behind them. But if you had seen their like their picture on a dating profile, you probably thought they were cute. You know, it's the context that kind of makes it creepy there. Now, tragically, on November 14th of 1974, the family's oldest son, Ronald DeFeo Junior shot both of his parents are shot. I'm sorry, shot both of his parents and all four of his siblings. He then took a shower, changed his clothes and walked to a nearby bar and said, You've got to help me. I think my mother and father are shot. Now, Robert DeFeo is he's an adult at this point. He's not like a 16 year old or something like that. And it's it's pretty clear that he's got some mental issues. It's pretty clear that he's got some mental issues Now someone at the bar called the cops and then a few of the few of the people at the bar walked back to the house Presumably to see if they could save anybody But when the police arrived they start their investigation Defeo presented them with a very bizarre story He claimed that a hitman who was angry at his uncle took out the family Now apparently his uncle was actually a capo in the gene of these crime family one of those words and Like he's like he actually named the person. So like I mean this there's a legit hitman that he named and so it's Kind of a weird nugget of information there Now I'm not actually gonna name him because I couldn't find anything About him being an actual hitman But I also didn't find anything that said he wasn't so now Now naturally they took him down to the station for both his safety and to interrogate him now Yeah, you've I've seen you spend some time on reddit. Could you imagine if like this is back when body cams were around? Like that play it would be all over the place I'd I'd I probably would have spent several hours watching body cam of them talking to this guy P1 about a hitman right now. I've been watching the UAP shit on there The squid one jellyfish and then I've been jelly trying to figure out this aliens down in Miami Mall I Am not familiar with the aliens in the Miami Mall. No, that's a big thing happened last week We'll probably have to talk about that. There are lots of weird things that happen in Miami, you know, actually it's for one of their Yep, non conspiracy related One of their city councilors just had a federal judge Ordered the the US Marshals to seize all of his property and all of his assets because he was being caught up in a like he decades long corruption case and he's Time after time and found doing fraud. It's it's yeah, Miami's a fun place man. So if there are aliens I hope they don't land there. I hope they land somewhere else. Maybe not, Kentucky Kentucky will shoot them this It's completely off-topic but like the Miami thing it is a there was a shitload of cops that rolled into it like they had like a hundred different cops and Come to find out they claim us for teenagers having Causing a fight or whatever and throw on fireworks at people. That's what the Authorities are saying happened, but a lot of people are saying there was eight foot tall aliens zooming like a Humanoid creatures coming in and out almost like Transparent than not transparent. They're like walking through walls and all sorts of sounds like in and out of existence I was like that sounds really freaking weird And they blamed it on a group of teenagers. Yeah, the police and everything are saying It was like four or five teenagers were arrested or something like that. I don't know Do you know if they had a dog? I don't I didn't hear anything about a dog Okay, well usually groups of teenagers carry dogs now usually the ones who solve those problems not create them So showing my age there with my little Scooby-Doo chair I was a little confused for a second when he said they have a dog I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? I didn't mean to mess with you there, man That's one of those personalities so The back to the Amityville before we jump into that. It's kind of strange where I live at now I'm only a few miles from a town called Hoover sign really a town and I can't think of what the guy's name is, but I think back and Don't know if it was the 70s maybe in the 60s, but years back It was similar to what happened with the Delfino guy He literally had killed his family then he went down the road and killed the rest of his family and then they had him locked up in like the Logan Sports State Hospital for murdering his family, but everyone said he was just off his medications. He heard voices and everything else He wasn't on his meds and I can't think what his name is. I've looked it up because it's only like Five ten miles from here. So it's like it's strange That's very similar and almost I think around the same time frame as the original Delfino murders were to Guy heard voices that made him go and kill his whole family. They go down the street kills brother and his family Well, I can tell you schizophrenia is a real thing man there's actually actually an incredibly powerful video that I watched where It's a somebody who was recently released from prison it's schizophrenic person he's said he was walking down the street and this woman came out and begged him for help saying that somebody was inside trying to kill her family and He goes inside and one way or another She convinced him to burn the house down and so he lit the house on fire and all of that happened in his head except for the fact that he actually burned down a house and Just was wrong. It's medications was wrong. So yeah, it's crazy how Some way someone can be can have those wires crossed in their head and it's it's an unfortunate thing, man It happens. Yeah, you know, usually they don't end up in weird situations like the Amityville case because that seems You know, it gets real fucking weird real quick here But um, anyways, so you know after the cops have him in the station and everything It became apparent that this dude was just straight-up lying So the following day he confessed to the killings. He said once I started I just couldn't stop and it went so fast When he finally made it to trial his lawyers provided an affirmative defense Which apparently is legalese for they're making an argument that DeFeo wasn't that the few didn't like So his lawyers were saying that psychology is lawyers and psychologist Were saying that he was insane and addicted to heroin Meanwhile, DeFeo was claiming self-defense because the voices were telling him what to do so This case is particularly interesting because there were the family was shot It's kind of muddy. So he was using a 35 caliber gun and anyone who knows anything about guns. That's yes. That's a loud pop and The family apparently didn't know what was happening. They were all shot in their beds So it's a speculation that it wasn't exactly what it seemed and there have been a couple of books that were written about this and You know, one of them is extremely sketchy, but they make the case that the mom was involved as well So it's it really is like it's a it's a pretty disturbing thing. There was a so there was a documentary I watched a few years ago and I'm pretty sure Delfino still alive, isn't he? I think I may you know, I read about like nine people in this Several of them are dead now. He may or may not be alive I think I don't remember when this I don't remember when this was filmed or when I watched it, but I swear they were still talking to him and They were saying that he really was hearing demons and I forget the documentary I'd have to find it But I remember something about watching it and they were trying to say that he wasn't it's not that he didn't do it But and it's not that he's even not schizophrenic, but he was actually hearing the demonic things making him do that well, so so the Events that happened afterward Make for a compelling case. So I just did a quick check. So he passed away in 2021 so there were Like you've mentioned there's a documentary that's out there. There's a few different stories that are out there and What I took away from this is that this was a deeply disturbed person whose Story changed multiple times throughout it So I got I know in the years after the trial but before he actually passed away So he did multiple interviews and he even requested a new trial at one point But his events, I mean they literally changed every time it he opened his mouth and you know, we'll never really know What actually happened? but You know if we knew exactly what went through his head, we probably wouldn't understand it anyways Because this is like it's just one of those tragic situations where It happened around the same time as the satanic panic was becoming a thing so there was a weird period in American culture where like Anyone who mentioned something demonic they immediately got They got on talk shows they got on the news they did that this is where you see Ed and Laurie and Warren rise to fame It's you know, it's kind of hard to say what happens in my mind This really is this it's a dude just snapped and murdered his family. It's one of the things that have happened I actually just interviewed someone recently the episodes out it was a Bad alien abduction, but during the beginning of it The guy talked about how just recently and within the last few years his brother His dad passed away and his brother For whatever reason so I take a shotgun and shoot the cats his mom and then himself That's his mom and then himself. I was like, Oh, that took a very dark turn instantly that I wasn't expecting to hear talk about aliens. And two, that came out of left field. I wasn't expecting to say that, but that was like four or five years ago. I was like, Jesus. So, yeah, well, you know, it's, it's, it's something that happens. And when we start talking about these demonic things and we start talking about some of these alien things, one of the things that I found through just researching topics for our show is that pop culture generally fuels these types of stories. So we have like, um, the alien craze going on, but this is also like, this is back in the seventies cold war era. So this is also when we start seeing movies like, uh, encounters of the third kind come out. This is when we started seeing people showing up and doing like weird hypnotism, just to see like, you know, putting facts in people's minds before for them to become reality. And then we have the satanic panic. So we start seeing these people talking about people being possessed. We start seeing like real life crimes being blamed on cults, things like that. So that leading to the people believing that he had actual demonic things is, it's just, I think that's more of a by-product of pop culture. Um, it's, I don't know. I don't like talking about this stuff right now, especially the suicide part of it, but you know, so this is also when the Lutz family gets involved in the story. So I'm a, I'm going to draw some of this information from Anson's book. And, uh, there's a few interviews I've seen and read from the family, but I do want to take a quick aside before we get into the heart of the story by saying that the real estate agent who sold them the house was a master saleswoman. According to Anson, when she showed the Lutz, uh, the house, she knew it was out of their price range, but she said, quote, I wanted to show them how the other half lived. So it was only after she did the tour that she, uh, let them know that this was the DeFeo house. You know, she then asked, like, I wonder if I, if I, um, I wonder if I should have told you which house this was before, after I, after you saw it. And then she added that she would like to know for future references when clients clients come looking for the house in the range of $90,000. So she baited it. She's like, she baited this dude hardcore into this. Now, I mean, George clearly had George is the, um, George Lutz. He clearly had no choice, but to buy the house after the agent questioned his ability to afford a cursed death trap. But, uh, George, I mean, he was such a good negotiator that he even got the agent to let him keep some of the furniture that was abandoned by the previous, uh, homeowners. And you know, that honestly sounds like a, um, like a sleazy car salesman who calls cigarette burns on the seats, like character marks. So hats off to that woman, dude, she, she wheeled and deal their way into that one. So, um, now that George had established his manhood by purchasing the gateway to hell, uh, his wife did the only reasonable thing she invited a Catholic priest to bless their house. Now this is where the facts get blurry and the fiction really starts to kick up and according to the Lutz family, the, uh, the priest who was given the pseudonym father men, a scout met cow men, a Salco, uh, when he started splashing the holy water on the walls, a masculine voice famously said, get out and like a real asshole. He didn't say shit about it to the family. Why would he, they, uh, I just didn't say anything about it. Uh, they even invited this, this, like the shady bastard to stay for dinner and he politely declined and dip the fuck out. So it's his story continues. So later that day, the priest is driving from his mom's house or whatever, and the car experienced several issues, including the hood breaking loose and slamming into the windshield while he was driving, when he pulled over the car ward and start, and he got a mechanic to, uh, come check it out. And when the mechanic got ahold of it back at a shop, he turned it on. The windshield wipers would not stop moving. They were completely out of control. And again, this asshole didn't tell the mechanic that he was working on a haunted car. I'm trying to remember the movie. Didn't something like that happen in the movie too? Yeah. So, so there's several movies that are out there. So the movie actually, I think does a pretty good job staying true to the book now, obviously it's a movie. So they take some, yeah, some, some liberties with the information, but I think they did a pretty good job, you know, how much of the book is true. You know, that's, that's debatable. So, but yeah, the priest definitely had this experience, but I just want everyone out there who's listening to know that if you, that you have a duty to tell people that something's haunted, it's okay for them to call you crazy, but it's not okay for you to get the haunted ass car to somebody just for shits and gigs. So just be cautious with that. So at the same time, like this car's going wild, this is like day one of the house, right? Uh, the Lutz family dog, his name's Harry, which is a great dog name, by the way, uh, he managed to jump over a fence and it caused him to strangle itself with his collar. And then the family radio stopped working and starts pitching out screaming high pitched noises and luckily they were able to save the dog's life. But it was a weird start to their, their first day in the new house. And then over the next couple of days, things only began to get weirder. So George would be, he started hearing knocking at the door every night around three 15 in the morning. And when there was never anyone around, he just assumed the kids were struggling to adjust to the new house and they were probably moving around a little bit in their beds. That wasn't until one night when the dog began to lose its mind. It was barking at the door. And when George went outside on the cold December night, he saw a shadow moving around his boat house. And this is the first time the alleged spirit had been like made visible to the family, at least to George anyway. Now the next day, Kathy was sitting in the, uh, kitchen writing in her journal when she had a strange feeling that somebody was staring at her. And when she looked around, she found her young daughter at the top of the stairs, just looking down at her mother. Her hair was draped over her face and she told her mom that she wanted to go home. Now I'm, I'm picturing this like moment in my mind and I can only imagine it must've been odd for Kathy, but I've got a daughter myself and she's definitely looked scary as shit on more than one occasion. So I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it. Like my daughter, she's got blonde hair, long blonde hair. And there's been more than one occasion where she's walked into my bedroom and just stared at me by trying to wake me up when she was younger. Like she was a child of the corn. So I'm like, little girls, they're, they're, they could definitely do some weird shit. I wouldn't think anything of this. I'm surprised at one point I have not straight up punch one of my kids for scared me at one point, just because of how creepy they could be making me up. So I'm a, um, I'm a retired firefighter, man. And loud noises freak. It was for a long stretch. I overreacted to loud noises. It was like something was like, it was like a roof was collapsing on me. You know, it was just my heightened sense like that. And I damn near punched my daughter in one time she came out, but she came out, boom, I was like, Oh shit. I came out like this and she, she dodged, you know, I didn't swing that hard, you know, I didn't actually punch my daughter in the head, but that was the closest I've actually come to hitting her. I did actually punch my brother in the face. One time when we were, um, when we were younger, I was, I was a slip passed out on the couch and he comes up and say, Hey Rich, Hey Rich, he's like, he like hits my head. I just wake up instinctively, just throw the weakest left hook you've ever seen caught him in the cheek though. So he stopped, stopped waking me up by the face after that though. Funny story. That's funny to me now, but felt bad when it happened. I was at a haunted house and this was probably 20, 20 years ago now. And I'd saw one of the guys, like, it was not a haunted house, like a real haunt was like one of those dressed up to scare you haunted houses or whatever. I'd saw the kid going around the corner. So I knew he was going to jump out, try to scare us. I was expecting him. I was not expecting the one on the other side to come out. So I'm looking this way. He jumps on like, Oh yeah, there you are. And the other one jumps out from behind me and I instinctively just turned and right in his face. He was just a kid. He's a teenager. I was probably only like 20, 21 at the time. So, but he was still a little younger than me. And I felt terrible because when we got out of the haunted house, he was outside doing this. His nose was busted. He was wearing a mask, but I punched him through the math, his nose, dude. That's terrible. So the kid was probably like maybe 15. I was like, Oh, like, sorry, man. It's like, sorry, man. He's like, it's okay. So I wonder, I wonder if they get hazard pay, like if, if their boss is like showing up bonuses or each time they get knocked in the face, I don't know what. Like I was just my instinct. I instantly just swung, got scared and swung. Yes. Just sucks, man. I, you know, I went to the only, the only real one I've been to, um, wasn't, it wasn't even a real, there was a haunt. It was, uh, had, uh, carowinds down in South Carolina. It's on the North Carolina, Charlotte, but it's North Carolina, South Carolina border, and, uh, they did a, um, scarowinds situation. We went down, I don't know, 18, 19. So those are on the same age as you, man. That was a great experience. Uh, I would never do it again, but it was fantastic, especially at that age. I haven't been to one. Well, I take that. I did go to one, not this past Halloween, but in 2022, I took my nephew to one. And they do one here in our town. They have the old, uh, school and they always decorate it up for Halloween every year, but other than that, like my wife doesn't like to go to that type of stuff, the kids don't like it either. So I don't have anyone to go with. He can't, at this point, we can't be the creepy old guys going on punching little kids. You know what I mean? It's a very different story. Being a 22 year old, punching an 18 year old and being a 30 plus year old. So, oh man. Oh, but yeah, back, back to the fact of the stories. This is when, um, this, the girl comes down and she's all scary and shit. Right now at this moment, uh, George lost his temper and he slapped the table now he was a strict person and the sudden abruptness, uh, the sudden abruptness of it all was, uh, at least according to Kathy out of character form now the kids on the other hand, they would describe him as abusive multiple times of their adulthood. But for the story sake, this is the beginning of an aggressive pattern that would start and end while George was in the house and so over the next couple of days, the demon would step up its game, like it's, it turned all the toilet water pitch black, made the house smell bad. It just sprinkled little, little cold spots throughout the house. And then one day it decided to unleash thousands of flies. Now, if you believe the house itself was possessed, um, it doesn't matter which part of its body would be the toilet, but I can assure you that it's rude to use the bathroom on somebody. So in this case, I totally agree with the house's reaction. Now you have a question up until go ahead. The flies, did it say what month that happened in this is December. So this happens over the course of 28 days. I have my own little theory about flies where I used to work. We had a room and there was a little heater in it that we had to keep it warm. Basically I used to plow snow. I used to work for the state highway department and I had to have plow snow and we made salt brine in this old little room we had that room had a little heater that we ended up putting in there to keep it warm. When we heated it up, when it was so cold, every single fly in the existence was in that room and it was in the window, there was like hundreds of flies all over the window just because of the warmth. So, but if they're ever like frozen there from the winter time, just warming them up. So I'll just kind of wonder. I was like, I know this is, there's so many flies, like if it's in a cold month, maybe because it got warm in there, they all like pull it out and they were just all migrating to where the warmth was. I don't know. So that is a possibility, right? So there are different lenses through which this story gets told. Um, now one of the sons and, and from what I can tell, he's the only one to actually go on record outside of his parents to explain the situation and what happened to him and his, in his view. And granted, he was a kid at the time in his telling of the story. There was a situation where there were flies all around him and he had taken a newspaper and he had swatted through killing hundreds of them. And when he went to get help from his mom, he came back. The flies were gone. So there is, is there a logical explanation for the flies being there? I'm sure there is, or, you know, this is something that the Lutz Lutz or Lutz family just made up and it sounds good, you know? I just know from experience there's even at the one of the other places, the offices that we had, there was, when it got really cold, when it started to warm up, the whole place was infested with flies and it's just, we went around with a vacuum cleaner or just like vacuum out of the windows because there's so many. So, uh, we had, uh, actually I've got a couple, a couple of little stories here. So I remember probably one of, one of my favorite days in life. It was one, it was absolute boredom. I was, um, I was like, I was 20, 21. And, you know, the, you know, back, back in the day, I enjoyed left-handed cigarettes, you know, a little, little puff puff pass here and there. And that's how I was spending my day off and, uh, my roommate had a dog and we had this, so we lived in a cinder block house out near the sound in North Carolina across the street was the landlady's house. And she, she would only show up every once in a while, but I made sure she, she wasn't home this weekend. So I'm just out there and I'm enjoying myself and, um, my roommate's dog had spent the night out there before. And so there was some dog group. We cleaned it up and everything, but the flies had come in. Man, I bet you, I spent two hours of my life just killing flies. It was just a great way. It was just one of those afternoons. I just killed that way, but now less depressing than flies is ladybugs. So where we're at, we will have, um, uh, you can hate them all you want, man. They're still pretty to look at the, um, they were, I was, I was in pest control for, I don't know, six, seven years and every, every year around this time we would get our fake spring or our fake winter. And so like everything would die and then everything would come back to life like, just like that. We used to get calls all the time about like hordes of ladybugs coming in through the windows and there would just be a mass like kill site of ladybugs in the windows where they'd come alive, went to the windows and frozen again and died. So yeah, bugs are weird, man. I, um, that happens to us every fall. It seems like every window and door for the garage or whatever, the one door going outside was literally infested with dead bugs because I went through and I sprayed so much bug killer and barrier or whatever, all the way around the place, all around the seals and everything. So when you open up that door, they're just dead bugs laying in the between the glass door and the garage door. And there's something about, there's something about killing bugs, man. It's very satisfying. As you know, especially as a married person, you know, you're going to catch shit if you see a bug in your house, I used to pay taking care of that problem early. We were paying for working up until the last few months. And then I just, I said, I'll do it myself because I don't feel like they're having that great of a job. Then I was still finding random mass spiders and stuff in the basement and that's where I'm at. And now it's the basements are hard. Well, I'm in the basement now, but I bug bombed the shit out of it a couple of weeks ago. Awesome. I'll give you some recommendations offline, some things you can do here and there that was something I really picked up with quite a few. I learned quite a bit doing that. So now, um, so up until this point, like it was really just in the story. Anyways, George and the priest were the only, the ones who like really think this place is haunted. I mean, they've only been in the house for just a handful of days. And there were, you know, obviously minor, small things, stuff like that happened that everyone thought was kind of weird. And that, that was until the night of December 23rd. Yeah. Everyone had to come around to the idea that something was seriously wrong. See that night with 315, something ripped the door off the home and unleashed the full brunt of a mild new England winter to the family's house. Now, after dealing with the nightmare, uh, the next morning, the daughter began to hum an unfamiliar tune while staring at the boathouse. Now she started saying weird shit like, do angels talk to you? And, uh, the brothers had gotten into an actual fist fight. And, uh, according to Kathy, all the crosses in the house had been turned upside down. It's a lot of red flags going on here, dude, especially right around the holidays. Now I will say, so Christmas would come and pass with, you know, just a few minor incidents here and there, you know, I guess the asshole that was haunting them took a break. Everyone gets a winter break, I guess. But, uh, it was after the new year that, you know, shit really started to hit the fans. Like, so the house began to really stink and the family went around to open up all the windows. And then one of the boys, one of the kids named Danny, the one who gave the interview had his fingers smashed in the window with such force that it actually shattered the bones in his hand. Now it took multiple family members to force the window off of his hand and when he When he's finally free the family rushed him downstairs. They began the first aid process Then according to Danny the door flung wide open and a spirit walked in According to him the operation bumped into his mom It walked through his hands knocking over a knife on the table and then sat down right next to them And as quickly as it entered it disappeared now according to Danny his hand was the size of a baseball glove and Suddenly the swelling went down and his hand returned to normal with the exception of his pinky now there's actually a full documentary centered around Danny and what his experiences were it's it's titled my Amityville horror and listening you actually just one of the ones on bill one YouTube and Listening to him tell the story it's It's actually quite chilling. So like you can you can hear his voice. Just how deeply disturbed the guy is and It's it's hard to say what actually happened when you listen to them But for right now, you know after that incident the the attacks would only pick up from there So at some point both Danny and George were were levitated off the ground and thrown Red eyes were beginning to appear in the windows and both Danny and George reported seeing a pig-like monster with fangs Now the priest I mentioned earlier He'd begun going through a cycle of flu-like symptoms and he finally broke down Called the family gave him a warning what was going on and then he had after some back and forth He decided he was going to reach out to the local bishop for help now I'm not going to pretend to understand Catholicism, but I do know that bishop is a big word so Bishop ultimately told father The one the priest to chill the fuck out apparently he was He was of the opinion that the priest was experiencing a big case of the bullshit and didn't want to pursue the matter any further Now around the same time there was situation When the daughter came running out at running into her parents bedroom saying Geordi needs to talk to you and he's got the biggest pig you've ever seen obviously George and Kathy freaked out because they don't know anybody named Geordi and There was potentially a big-ass pig loose in their house, which honestly sounds worse than being haunted. I don't know what you want to do with a giant friggin pig or a demon Yeah, well, I mean one of them is gonna shit for sure the other one who knows, you know I don't know. I don't know. I mean obviously ghost shit probably smells bad. That's why I was smelling so bad in their house but like I never understood that part like they were saying the thing was like Shitting but I don't know the term to say like it I've never heard of a ghost or a spirit or whatever having some sort of excrement or whether it's just strange That was something I just threw into the story there man, that's not something they were I thought you said something earlier the same About the house like shitty medically. Okay This is the house smells bad You know, okay, you're dealing with quite a petty asshole. You're gonna haunt a house You're a petty-ass ghost dude. And if you're a petty-ass ghost chances are you're you're you're shitting somewhere You shouldn't be shitting cuz because that's just what bastards do. Yeah, okay You said that earlier house kind of just like I've never heard that part where the ghost was supposed We shouldn't in the house. I had to been like an animal or something. Yeah, so well, you know, I will so I will say so not included in my story is a throwaway line from the book where George describes seeing some green stuff in the boathouse He called that poltergeist vomit that is just Yeah, since we're on the topic. I wasn't even gonna bring it up. But you know, there's a plasm So, yeah, I like the your slimer just through you and now you got all the dew on him or whatever so now So a few nights after the Geordie incidents, you know something attacked the boys Their beds were being thrown up and down and George and George could hear this happening But he was paralyzed and he was sucked to his bed when he looked over for his wife for help She was levitating off the mattress When the boys broke free they came in screaming about a faceless monster trying to grab them The entire family had been having a nightmare, but this was the final straw George and Kathy gathered their children rushed out of their house got in the family van and dipped out They vowed to never spend another day inside the monstrosity so Before we move on to some of the speculation about what happened. I think it's important to mention that After the news had spread about the miraculous events surrounding the Situation and why the DeFeo house was going back on the market Their local Channel 5 news team Channel 5 news team ran a story on it So they obviously contacted the Lutz family And they invited paranormal investigators and psychics to spend the night with their camera crew to see if anything would happen Now two of the people they invited were Ed and Laurene Warren Now if you're not familiar with them They are world-renowned bullshitters who masqueraded around the country selling ghost stories like they were crack dealers in the 80s grifters and If you've watched any like modern-day possession movie that begins with based on a true story Chances are it was loosely based on air quotes their investigations The reporter who was the act I think the only neutral person involved in any of this didn't recall anything strange Happening to him directly and he doesn't he didn't see any evidence of anything going on But he did make a note that his cameraman who was relatively fit Relatively fit guy who had been to like other countries doing war coverage things like that began running out of running out of breath and His head said his heart felt heavy while he was climbing the stairs Now The Warrens allegedly took a photo of a ghost boy. He was like peeking his head around the door One of their assistants would come forward and basically debunk all of their work Now the Anson and at least George and Kathy Lutz have maintained that everyone who has lived in that house has Experienced some strange occurrences as a patently false statement In fact according to the neighbors and some of the people who have lived there No one that they know has had a problem since the Lutz family moved out Now Anson the author of the book has come forward and to say that the only reason he agreed to write the story is because the priest spoke to him directly and confidentially and support the Lutz family story The priest would eventually come forward to identify himself and get gentleman by the name of race He like a pretty decent guy and he denied the entire thing for what it's worth the Catholic Church has also released a statement vehemently denying the entire thing and Has it listed as one of the many hoaxes on its official website? But it's the Catholic Church and they have vehemently denied many things and they're absolute bastards. So Take that with a grain of salt Now George Lutz is you know He has he was known to have an affinity for the occult which kind of adds the speculation that he made up the whole thing Hoping to make some money off of it and then I think goes about saying that the Warrens Jay Anson and at least George and Kathy Lutz all made a significant amount of money on the story the book and the movie You know and from from what I can tell as mentioned earlier Danny's probably one of the only one the only kids to come forward out and actually talk about this publicly And my heart really goes out to the guy I mean he describes his parents going to any media outlet that would talk to them And he would he and his siblings were dropped off at Catholic school where? He talks about being beaten up by nuns and they were priests who were performing routine Exorcism on him because he I guess he was haunted Danny ended up leaving home at 15 because George was an asshole and his mom kind of sucked too and He goes on goes on record as saying George could move things with his mind in the documentary And he actually tells a pretty good story about how he went in and saw his stepdad moving a wrench with his mind so there's obviously, there's a lot of stuff going on with the story and Some people really believe it's haunted some people look at the story and go, okay something drove the defoe boy crazy and made him kill his family and Obviously it lingered and hit the Lutz family and that's why they ended up being as haunted as they were You have pretty clear evidence that they were lying or I shouldn't say that they were lying you have pretty clear evidence that they were incentivized to lie and make up this statement and And the people that are surrounded by them that support the statement are known grifters. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's a tricky one. It really is because this, this is a story that has infiltrated pop culture since 1975, it's been, everyone's been touched by the story. And I kind of had my own theory without trying to discredit anything that they'd said, but like, I've always kind of wondered. They didn't know the back history of the house when they fell in love with it and they wanted it. So they moved in and realized that they couldn't afford it. And then they're like, oh shit, we need to get, we need to get out of here. So what did they do? They just made up the story just so they could try and get out of the place. I don't know how that worked back in the seventies. I figured you can't just get out of the loan to buy the house or something, but I don't know. So that's, that's a theory that's been floated out there several times and financial struggles make a lot of sense. It really does. Now the naysayers, I guess the people who would detract from that would say that they were only there for 28 days. How would they, you know, the bank wouldn't have, they wouldn't have been foreclosed on because they wouldn't have enough time to have paid their second mortgage, let alone their first mortgage. And I think that's, that's a silly argument at best because yeah, I've, I've bought things that I know that I couldn't afford. And now have I, have I gone around saying my car was haunted? No, absolutely not. But you know, you make bad financial decisions. I think that's there. Now I do think that I do think that George probably planned this out. I think that there was, I think that he wanted to create this story. And I think that he wanted to sell it because he was into the cult, he did look at this fan, this house, like it made, you know, maybe I can get a deal with on this. Right. And then they created this whole fictional event that happened. Their kids are young enough to be suggestive, suggestible. It's just, it's a fun, it's a fun story. It's one that I've always found fascinating. I've always liked the idea of it being haunted. I that's fucked up to say, but like thinking that something like that really did happen, like I want to believe, but yes, at the same time, it's like, I never believed that. Like I've watched the movie actually liked the movie, but it just sounded so ridiculously over the top that the gates of hell happened here at this house, but never happened again. Like, yeah, right. Like there was a, there was a red moon. Like all this stuff. Saturn lined up perfectly. Like I'm pretty sure like the end of the movie and I don't, I don't talk about the new one with Ryan Reynolds or whatever, which I don't think that one was a terrible one either, I guess. I don't really remember that one. But the original one isn't like a portal opened up in there, like starting to like suck shit in or some shit when they're trying to escape the house at the end and it was, doesn't want to let them leave. Oh my God. You know, I, I instantly forgot all about the movie now that you asked me. I know at the end of poltergeist, the portal opened up and like fucking caskets and shit came flying out, man. I feel like at the end though, like there was like a light or whether they were trying to escape the house and had to get in the car and drive away. I could be mistaken and thinking of poltergeist, but I'm pretty sure it was the end of a whatever, cause it had like a, Oh, not Josh Brolin, but whatever his dad's name is. He was the George of that movie. But no, it was a pit of black sludge. So there was like, it was following him and stuff like that. Yeah. It's a good movie, man. It really, it is. It's, it's, it is a good seventies horror film. I will say that they did a good job making that movie. Now the Ryan Reynolds ones probably skip out on that one. Yeah. That's one of the, I'm actually a pretty big Ryan. I think like most of the world, I'm pretty big Ryan Reynolds fan. Um, but that movie, just that movie really did seem like an excuse for him to just take a shirt off. It was almost like it was an underwear ad. You know what I mean? Like that song that came out, like, uh, she looked so perfect standing there in an American pair of underwear that was sold as a rock. So it was clearly, clearly a Washington state rock song, pop song. It was clearly a commercial watch. Ryan Reynolds by the, by the boat house with no shirt on it. And then walk around looking at his family with an ax with no shirt on. What do you remember about that movie? If Ryan Reynolds abs, incredible abs, very menacing, very menacing, clearly did a lot of sit-ups and had a great fast. No, that's a, that's all I really remember about that movie to be 100% honest was he was like, he played George and I remember he had an ax and everything and I almost felt like it was almost like the shining to an extent, like he walked around with an ax he's possessed. So that was another good story. I love the shining. That was a great, actually a couple of great films for that one. Stephen King's fucking terrible, man. God, I hate him. I hate all of his movies. I hate reading his stories. I just can't, I can't, I can't, I don't like living in a world where Stephen King exists, if I'm being honest with you now, you know, one of the fun conversations I like to have is about ghost. Now, do you think ghost are real? That is a very slippery slope that I am not going to mention on air. No, I'm just fucking with you. Um, yes and no. And I mean that in the sense of, I don't feel like people are haunted by like someone that used to live here or somebody you go to a cemetery, Oh, because you're by someone's grave, their spirits around there. If you believe in an afterlife, their spirit should be fucking gone. Why would they linger around? Oh, they're just lost souls. This and that I think the energies are what's here. And I don't know if that's a soul. I don't know if it's a ghost or whatever it is. I think the things that we interact with are some sort of an energy. If that makes any sort of sense, I don't know if it's like, sometimes it's negative, sometimes it's this and that. And I've always wondered maybe throwing out the whole interdimensional thing. Maybe when people see shadow, people are, when they see these other figures or interact with these things, they're not actually ghost in the sense of dead spirits or whatever, but they're actually something from another plane of existence that we don't see yet, but kind of bleeds into our world. That's, that's my weird hypothesis. That's a, that's a, that's a good, I actually like that explanation. Now we've talked about this several times on our show. Now I'm, I've had, and I actually talk about paranormal experiences on your show, so I've, I've only had one, one strange thing happen to me and I'm pretty sure I hallucinated it. So I'm not, I'm not saying I'm not going on record saying it's real or not, but I remember I was, I was hungover driving back to my house. Yes, exactly. Right. I was driving back to my house. And so at the time I lived on, I lived, it's like a, I don't want to say an access road, but it was a road that connected a highway, two highways. We lived on that road and I looked over, it was, it was one of those like early summer mornings where the sun's not quite out yet, but it's like muggy, you know what I mean? It was a perfect day to, or I shouldn't say perfect. It was an absolutely terrible day to be hungover because it was, you know, you're sweating immediately, but I'm driving down the road and I'm relative to the right. And I saw a face to stand in there staring at me, freaked me the fuck out. I almost swore it off the road. I'm came back to it. I looked over, it was gone. Now that was the only time I've had that experience. Now there was a situation when I was a kid where my sister played the perfect prank on myself and my cousins, where she moved a doll and made it look like she didn't do it. And we went here singing that doll was possessed. She finally came forward with it. You know, I remember my, I can still, I can still see my cousin's face. Uh, you know, we went years without talking or seeing each other rather. And when, when I broke it down to him, how she did it, it looked like he, it looked like he wanted to punch me in the arm because I ruined the story for him. Yeah, that's fun stuff, man. Now my co-host, um, Dan in particular, he is, um, he's had several experiences that are ghost-like. Yeah. He, he talks about shadow people and his experiences with that. And yeah, he and I have been friends. Well, he, my co, both co-hosts, John and John and Dan, we had been friends, they've known their brothers, they've known each other their entire lives, but I've known them for the last 17 to 18 years. And it was only after we started doing the show that we started talking about some of the stranger things that have happened in our lives, because it wasn't something that we talked about freely, who wants to go tell their friends that they're seeing ghosts and shit, you know, so it's a strange You know, so it's a strange conversation to have. And so it's the more I hear and the more I listen to people that talk about their experiences. I'm starting to come around to the idea that maybe there is something out there that is haunting. I don't disagree. There's not something out there. I just, like I said, far as it being, I don't know what it is. I'm not going to go on a record. I know what it is because I don't think anyone really knows what the fuck it is. But I definitely think these people experience something now, obviously in the case of the Amityville or whatever, I don't know, and even people that I've probably talked to or whatever, they've embellished things here and there. I'm assuming it's just part of it. Also, I don't know if they do it intentionally just because if you have a traumatic experience, your mind typically tries to, I don't want to say block certain things, but like it, you don't remember it exactly. How it happened. Your mind has a weird way of trying to like shelter you from that. I think like a defense mechanism. So, and I've talked about this before. Maybe people that have these traumatic events, even like these abductions or whatever. Is it actually aliens abducting or there's something that really happened to you or a kid and you're saying aliens came into your room and abducted you and did all these things to you. Was it really aliens or was it like some weird creepy uncle that came in and your brain is processed as being abducted by aliens. Like that's just an example. I'm not saying that's what really happened. But like I've often wondered if maybe our minds themselves are not sheltering us, like shielding us from some sort of weird experiences we've had, and we can only understand it and that this is the way we make sense of it. I did. It's a good point. It is. I think that there's enough literature out there that says that you're right. Now I am curious. So I do want to talk about the podcast a little bit. So there are people who are going to be listening to this that are probably thinking about starting a podcast and they want to probably do something similar to what you're doing. I'll even maybe something similar to what I'm doing. What has been, what do you think the best place for somebody to start with that is? To start a podcast. Basically, I had no idea what the fuck I was doing. So I go back and listen to the old episodes and I'm kind of like, hate them. They just don't sound good. Didn't know what I was doing. It was weird to talk to strangers or anything like that, especially when you don't, I'm not a very outgoing person. So if you already have a personality where you're like going out and talking to people all the time and you never meet a stranger, it's easier to do that. Myself was, I'm always more of a quiet, reserved, I'm going to hang in the back of the room and observe everybody else and not be the social butterfly or whatever, which is strange because my old band, I'm actually rocking one of our old shirts. I was the vocalist of a band. So I've always had to be the one on stage talking to people. So it was awkward as general. I don't like talking to people really, but here I am the front man and hosting a frigging podcast. But like I said earlier, as far as this, the first time I've been face to face really for this podcast or as a interviewing with people. But tips wise, a lot of people have been getting these, the equipment like the podcasting equipment, the road caster and stuff like that. I think you want to make sure you have a decent, clear enough sound. I think, and this is just me being a music person, but I like to have, I like when you don't have to continually turn each person up. Like if one person's speaking and then a guest speaks, I've noticed on other podcasts and again, pet peeve, but like the person's volume was so low that you have to turn up to hear what they're saying and then the other person comes back on, they're super loud and you have to turn it back down, try and equal out your levels. And then having a topic, like if you, if you want to do a podcast like this, it is so hard to find guests. I never thought it would have been as hard as it is to find guests. Now I advertise every episode. Those are my voice. And I always say, send an email to 10 Full Hotels podcast, gmail.com. I have been contacted through that email, maybe two dozen times. I'm in like 70 something episodes now, and I've only been emailed by people less than 24 times, I'd say most of the people I find is because I make posts in groups or on Reddit or something like I have to search for the guest at this point going on two years, I thought be contacted by people I have been getting contacted by people, but it's not because they're listening to the episodes and then they reach out to me, the people that contact me is because they see my posts and they want to come on the show or they've just, you know what I'm saying? Like it's weird to interview people. It's a proactive approach. Yeah. It's weird for me. Like I thought at this point, when I got new in the podcast, I didn't understand it was going to be more of a struggle and I thought, well, everyone's got some sort of weird stories to talk about or whatever. I'm sure they've all had something strange. Some, most people don't even want to talk about it. I was like, well, it's a podcast. No one's going to see you. We can change your name, like talk about weird experiences. There's some anonymity there. Yeah. And then a lot of people, they don't, I've been, they'll comment something, Hey, you want to come on the show? Nothing. I've got people booked right now that I'm still trying to get to confirm. Like I get stuff booked a lot and a lot of people ghost me. I mean, I guess I believe in ghosts in the sense that about 50% of my guests are ghosts because they disappear. People will tip out. I will say you, you, you have an impressive catalog of people on there. And I saw your, I saw your post about like what you have prerecorded and ready to jump, whatever you're ready to do it, man. It's incredible. So I found personally, so anyone who actually goes through and wants to listen to real time progression of podcast quality to check out our show. Cause you will hear our first scattered brand episode with terrible audio. And then you'll come across our 15th, 16th episode where it actually sounds like we know what we're doing. Now the, I've found the Reddit community in general to be extremely helpful, especially when it comes to finding other guests and things like that, because there are it's a sub Reddit podcast exchange, our guests podcast exchange, somebody that can't remember the top of my head, where we found all of our guests and we haven't found any, you know, we've only had, yeah, of the guests we've had, we've had two bad experiences where one was not a very good fit for what we do in our show. Cause our show is, it is, it is personality driven. It is humor driven. It is, it is at least one of us taking it seriously and then two of us shitting on the rest of the, the topic each episode, it rotates whoever's the serious one. It's not intentional. It's just the way our personalities work, but that would be my tip for anybody going out there who wants to start one check out Reddit. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a good, it's a good place to find some gas. Cause there are, yeah, as many people as there are, who don't want to share their stories. There's just as many people out there who do want the world to see who they are and who do want to talk about them, even if it's not topic specific, like I know you, you're primarily interview driven, we're story driven, so that's probably a little bit easier for us to get some interchangeability with guest wise. Cause we don't, we don't need you to come on and tell a story. Now, granted, I will say your, when you came on our show, you did a fantastic job telling your story. It was wonderful. And we didn't have to do a lot of the work on that one. So we do have that every once in a while. That would be my tip for anybody out there who wants to actually take some time and do that. And then to have a schedule to know what your schedule is. So you can have self-imposed deadlines would be my second tip. I suggest, I probably shouldn't say this on air. You can use Reaper is your DAW, DAW, however you want to call it, the edit and mix and stuff like that. I don't know what a lot of people use for podcasts. I have all this stuff again, for music purposes. And Reaper is free in the sense that you get a free trial and after your 60 days are up, it will ask you if you would like to purchase it. And if you say you're still evaluating it, they'll let you continue to evaluate it for free. And it'll just ask you again, if you would like to purchase it. And you just keep saying, you're still evaluating. Cause I've been evaluating it. Cause I'm not sure I want to buy it. Cause I've been evaluating it for two years now. I'm thinking I'm going to buy it, but I'm just not sure yet. I'm thinking I'm going to buy it, but I'm just not sure yet. Still want to keep evaluating it. So, yeah, I've thought about evaluating it myself. It's, it's worth evaluating. Yes. But we use, uh, we'll use for heavy edits, which we very rarely do. We usually just say every once in a while, there'll be a joke that we don't want to be associated with that gets made that we'll edit out. And, um, yeah, so we'll, uh, we'll use audacity and then, and then within our, there's, there's, there's a few different platforms, but the one that we've been using is called stream yard. You can't actually edit some of that out. It's a pain in the ass, but you can't edit some of this stuff out through the, through the platform that you're on. Yeah. So I've just been using, I've been used to using stuff like Reaper for a long time, just because music and all the other stuff. So I was already kind of familiar with what needs to happen, how things go and there's a lot of little plugins and stuff, someone else suggested I use audacity. So I downloaded it. I was like, this stuff looks like it's from 19, like 98 or shit's like, Oh dude, it screams dial up internet that that tone it feels like it feels like I'm hearing that every time I touch it. Now I, I do, it's one of the things I wanted to ask you about. I, I, I love this about your, about your show, but I'm always curious. Like who's the craziest person that you've talked to so far and are you willing to talk about that on your show? If not, you'd totally cut it out. Okay. With that, we can talk about that all fair. Okay. No, I don't want to put you on spot or anything. I just listened. I'm like, man, this is some of the stuff's out there. No, I, uh, I've said it before too. And like, I don't want to offend any of the guests. No, you're good, man. It is what it is, but like it comes with the territory. Like literally the name is derived from Penn foil hat. Literally people think you're a crazy person. Yeah. So now you can, so, so on, uh, I'm just assuming you're editing this part. I'll, you can press B it will timestamp that for you. Press B. Yeah. If you press B on your keyboard, there'll be a little timestamp in there when you go back to edit it. Nice. But well, hey, man, I've really enjoyed you taking the time to talk with me tonight, so I really do appreciate that. And not a problem. Love to have you on. Enjoyed talking with you guys on your show or anyone out there listening, or you want to let them know where they can find you guys up. Yeah. So we are the founding lore fathers. Uh, we are on Spotify, Apple and Amazon. Uh, we've got, yeah, I think we've got a probably about 18, 19 shows recorded. We've probably released 17 of them so far. It's a fun show. If you, um, if you want to learn fun facts about different cryptids or different conspiracy theories, it's, it's a good spot to be there. And we're not, we do our best not to take ourselves seriously. That's, uh, that's something that I've struggled with is I'm too serious and I'm not a very serious person, which is funny, but like on the show, I come off too serious. You have resting serious face, Brandon. Yeah. I have resting. You can't, you can't have literally everyone will ask me what's wrong. Why do you look mad? Like, I'm not mad. Oh, dude, that sucks, man. That sucks. Like, I feel offended for you. I have permanent resting bitch face. There you go. You heard it here first, everybody. No, I mean, that's a, that's a shame, but not, you know, listening to your show and this, this isn't a, this isn't a critique because actually I find it to be very endearing is that you come on and you let your guests, you go, you let your guest talk, you don't interfere with it and that's fantastic, man. So anyway, it says anything negative about that. They suck. They don't need to be a part of it. Anyway, I don't like listening to myself talk. Anyways, I hate the sound of my voice, so I like, I'm just giving them a platform to talk. It's all it is. You know, I'm actually always shocked when I hear my voice. I, uh, I, I talk so much. You think I'd be used to hearing it, but I, yeah, I don't always hear it. I go, wow, that's what I sound like. How about that? I can't believe people are willing to listen to what I have to say. No one ever sounds like what they think they sound like. No, not at all, man. It's a fun, fun little thing that we all have to deal with. But no, I, uh, Hey, as long as we enjoy what we're doing, all it matters. Oh yes, sir. And I wish the best of luck to you and in your endeavors in this situation, man, cause you're doing, you're doing really good work. I do want to, one more point to tell people and you're doing a podcast, do not get over infatuated with the numbers. I've noticed a lot of people are struggling with podcasting. They think they have to be hitting. Oh, I'm not getting this many downloads. I'm not getting it. If you put out good content, as long as you keep promoting it, which I don't promote anything really. So I can't really speak on how well it does, but if you put out good content and you can be consistent with it, I think eventually it'll start growing like my shows and just a little piss ant show, but I've got a little decent little steady stream of downloads or whatever that I get. So it's not anything amazing, but I know some people will start a podcast. I think they're supposed to be getting like freaking 10 million downloads a week. I'm like, I mean, it would be nice, but set your goals to, uh, actually something achievable. So it's a very, it's actually a very, this is actually a very good point there, Brandon. So I know, so we, the promotion that we have done for our show has been me going online and asking for, see if anybody wants to listen or anybody wants to be a guest, I should say now from there and putting it on Spotify and Amazon and Apple has helped, but from there, we have been able to garner a pretty decent for a show that only has less than 20 episodes. We've been able to gather a pretty decent little following. And are we, are we Joe Rogan? Are we part of my team? Absolutely not. No. And there's very, very small chance that we will ever even look at half those numbers, right? But we do, we have, I have, we have, um, fans in Canada. We have fans in India. We have fans in America. There are women who listen to us talk about weird shit on the internet, but it happens and you're right. You shouldn't stress out about that. Like you really, you can't now you get four or five years into it. You got 10 people listen, you know, maybe change it up a bit, but if you're starting out, you know, it, it's just a matter of, it's just a matter of grinding through it, putting out episodes. Like you said, content matters. No, I said, my numbers, if you look at the amount of Spotify followers, should they amount of downloads? Like there's something wonky about it, but it is what it is. So we don't see, I don't download anything. I just, I just listened to stream it. And so that, you know, that adds into that. So like, I know I'm one of your followers, but you probably don't see any of my downloads. Cause I don't, I don't download anything. I just listen. I don't know if they count downloads or streams as a stream. I, that's what's strange. Like it's a, I know when I switched platforms, I went from RSS to red circle, I've been getting a lot more quote unquote downloads instantly. Since I switched hosting services. And I don't know how that's possible. Cause everything's been the same, a different host. So I don't know where they come up with their numbers. Like I would literally like doubled my downloads and like just literally switching over by one day, the amount of stuff just started doubling kind of weird. Yeah. And maybe they, maybe they were counting streams instead of, instead of the actual downloads rather. I have no idea how it works, but that's all I got for anyone out there. If you have any other questions or whatever, don't ask me. Cause I'm a Joe, nobody. Well, there you go, man. You can reach out to us. You can find us somewhere and just leave a comment somewhere on all that. But I, I, again, I hope you enjoy your night, Brandon. Thanks for having me again. Not a problem. Thanks for coming over and talking with me. You have a good night. Remember the truth lies in the stories we share the connections we make. Stay curious, stay open-minded. Thank you all for joining us on this journey. And until next time, keep questioning, keep seeking, and keep exploring the unknown. Good night, everyone.